Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[crookeddy]

Pedantic arguments aside, the riot was probably organized by some professionals with an agenda. That much seems certain at this point. And their purpose was to delay the certification of election results. In other words they were subverting democracy - an insurrection. They weren't necessarily planning to take over the government and fight off the US Army in a literal way, but they were somewhat violently (It obviously could've been worse, but organizers knew that extreme violence would be met by extreme retaliation) trying to overturn a democratic process. So why did they fail? Perhaps they expected more conviction from the crowds that actually breached the building. Those guys got the hell out of there when the national guard showed up.

 

[Anwar]

Correct stats.

Juked Stats

White Males Killed: 434
BlK Females Killed: 2

And how many of those white men are killed for no reason?

Are there more White males than Black females? Yes.

And those who get killed aren't killed for no reason.

2. Tell what to the "January attack"? A tiny % of the people at the event engaged in one riot for 4 hours on one afternoon, with no one having guns? Ever try to overthrow a country and forget to bring your gun? There was no "insurrection".

They had a gallows ready to hang people with. That they even got inside shows how poorly most of the Guards handled this.

3. Biden ALSO ran against Trump.

After 4 years of Trump's idiocy forced the Overclass who'd supported him to finally wise up.

4. Murder the Senate? With what?

Their bare hands. And nooses.

5. No idea who you are talking about. No reason to believe the US Govt would refuse a Black CA if that were real in our World. Biden or Obama would refuse? Why? Why would even Trump refuse? You are making all of this up.

Obama and Biden wouldn't, Trump would do everything he could to get someone white.

Whether you like it or not, Captain America is a major mantle in Marvel and can and should be passed from character to character as befits the changing times. Sam earned it now that Steve's term is over.

 

[crookeddy]

It's kind of funny, I probably have similar politics and distrust of the mainstream narrative as @Tarek71 but I am reading the room and keeping it to myself... lol

 

[urbandefault]

Y'all have a weird sense of reality.

This is a TV show based on some movies, based on some comic books, based on some dudes' imagination.

Maybe come up for air and see what's really real.

Flame away.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The FindLaw Legal Dictionary -- free access to over 8260 definitions of legal terms. Search for a definition or browse our legal glossaries.

Insurrection
insurrection n

: the act or an instance of revolting esp. violently against civil or political authority or against an established government
;also
: the crime of inciting or engaging in such revolt [whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or against the authority of the United States…shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years "U.S. Code"]

10 Grand or ten years?

Ten thousand dollars x 5000 people.

5 million dollars.

Not a lot of money.

However...

If you could rally up the Trumpers to insurrect once a week.

That's 1/4 of a billion a year.

So in just 4000 years, they could pay off America's "current" debt to China.

I'm sure China will still be around to receive the final payment.

America?

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[JD]

You don't 'need' to write it in any particular way. And you can say whatever you want. But your interpretation remains your interpretation and if you're being intellectually honest, you can't (and shouldn't try to) force anyone else to agree to it. Whether it feels awkward to you or not really doesn't matter to someone else's engagement with the story. And really, the example you picked is so unlikely that it would be fairly ridiculous to even worry about to begin with. And that's without even getting into the fact that if you're really this bothered by people getting your story 'wrong' in any way, you maybe need to work on that for yourself or else consider a different career/hobby, because there are *always* going to be people who interpret your work differently than you do.

I guess my example came to mind because I recently saw someone mention all of the incest slashfic people wrote about Sam and Dean Winchester from Supernatural.

About author intent, I remember a story about Fahrenheit 451 Maybe it's apocryphal or I remember it badly, but it's a good example on the subject. At a lecture in a College Bradbury was saying that he conceived this novel as a criticism of the looming cultural distraction of technology, most notably television. But students interrupted him, explaining that he get it wrong and it was obviously a satire about censorship and an indictment of communist witch hunt-era America. No further words from the author could change the students' minds.

As an author, you can never control of what a reader will ultimately think.

IE - you could add specific/direct dialog from a character stating the relationship between the two is explicitly platonic; but a reader so inclined will come up with a rationalization that supports their personal belief about what the actual situation is.

These posts did make me reconsider things. I guess what bothered me was that I saw people interpreting something different from how the writer intended as a bad thing, that it was basically saying that they were a bad writer, who screwed things up so badly that they didn't get their point across. But I see now that it is simply people with a different perspective looking at it from the viewpoint, and that are often seeing things that are there, even if writer didn't intend it that ways, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Funny how the first pic you show is off an insurrectionist holding a police riot shield. Many of which were obtained by physically assaulting, maiming, and using chemical sprays to incapacitate and then take their items.

You are right this was not Japan. It was American citizens hoping they could influence Congress/Pence to violate the Constitution. Some of whom never got a chance for physical violence or death against elected Democrat officials because they never encountered them.

...and let is not forget that many in that crowd were chanting, "Hang Mike Pence!" That was no joke, or the voices of two or three people. The insurrectionists were attempting to eliminate the second most powerful person of the Executive Branch, very similar to the Lincoln assassination plot where George Atzerodt was supposed to assassinate Vice President Andrew Johnson, both in an attempt--in one flash of violence--to impose their twisted will on the nation, and keep the population "in check" with terror. The "Hang Mike Pence!" people were not only well seeded in that group, but its telling that they were not rejected by the others in that mob.

 

[Tarek71]

Funny how the first pic you show is off an insurrectionist holding a police riot shield. Many of which were obtained by physically assaulting, maiming, and using chemical sprays to incapacitate and then take their items.

1. Yes, there was a riot. It was nothing compared for far worse and far more destructive riots all summer, but a riot nevertheless. Doesn't look like he claimed too many victims with his pointy stick though. It's certainly what I would bring to a revolution. Who needs guns, right?

2. These are a mixed bag of cranks and crackpots who thought it was the other way around. That democracy was being stolen by mass fraud. Important to remember that they, like all of us, are the heroes in the their own stories. They think they went their to save democracy and Constitution, not overturn it.

3. If a few of them did have guns, they oddly decided not to shoot anyone. What we have seen so far is hundreds of unarmed people rioting. That's it.

4. There is no threat to anything. Democratic congressmembers have protested the inclusion of certain Electoral College votes three times since 2000. Members of Congress have a right to do that. That IS a legal, constitutional process.

5. Well you have people wandering the halls, taking pics. Laughing and smiling with reporters, cops and staff. At the same time, unarmed Ashli Babbitt was murdered in cold blood.

 

[Tarek71]

It's kind of funny, I probably have similar politics and distrust of the mainstream narrative as @Tarek71 but I am reading the room and keeping it to myself... lol

I can take any 10 or 20 single handed, and I have as you can see.

You do you. But don't worry about pushing back against these groundless narratives.

 

[Tarek71]

Juked Stats

1. Nope. Still correct. Just repeating "juked" doesn't change that. If data is wrong, show how.


2. They shot no one. They didnt intentionally kill a single person. Not even from their comical make shift "gallows". LOL. Not surprising given how they are unarmed.

3. Nothing to do with an "Overclass". Trump did better with Black, Asians and Hispanics in 2020 than in 2016. But Biden did better with white voters than Hillary. A couple of % point swing among them is what tilted it to Biden. There was no "Overclass" deciding that he should not be President anymore.

4. Ok so Biden or Obama might have a Black Captain America? I see no reason Trump would not either. The premise that they established here in the show is groundless and silly.

 

[Tarek71]

In the real world, there are no more Republicans Post January 6th. There are only former Republicans and traitors.

That is the sort of shrill hyperbole that is not helping anyone or anything.

 

[theenglish]

Now this is what I call a solid, reasoned, thorough argument! Well done!

I think that it is futile to argue with statements that include a criticism of BLM and no criticism of white supremacism, facism, or police brutality in the US.

 

[theenglish]

Correct stats. You never even read them have you? This is the price we pay for a media that point blank will not report it.

White Males Killed: 434
BlK Females Killed: 2

Are there more White males than Black females? Yes. But not 217x as many. There are only 5x as many. Which means White males are killed at 217 the NUMBER, but dozens of times the RATE, per capita.

Changing two variables invalidates an argument. You need to compare White males with Black Males or White Females with Black Females--- or just Whites with Blacks. Keep in mind that Black Males make up about 8 percent of the population vs. 38 percent white males. In the meantime, the WP has already looked at the numbers:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

EDIT: I thought your numbers were a little low so I did my own research. According to statista.com, 1813 white people were killed by police since 2017, and 922 black people. There are more than 5x the number of white people than black, and only 2x the number of white people killed. This means that black people are killed by police at a rate 2.5x higher than white people.

 

[Neroon]

That is the sort of shrill hyperbole that is not helping anyone or anything.

Warning for flaming, which appears to have been a problem in other threads as well. Comments to PM
Incidentally, please use the quote function in the future, to condense replies in a given thread. Posting four in a row is not according to the posted rules.

 

[dupersuper]

Why would it be weird seeing it here? It's everywhere. And it is the term the Woke use to refer to themselves. They coined it.

Do they capitalize it as well?

December 7th. September 11th. January 6th. Never forget. Never forgive.

The instigators of December 7th and September 11th are all dead...who are you holding a grudge against?

 

[KennyB]

I was looking for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier discussion. Is this the right place?

 

[crookeddy]

I was looking for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier discussion. Is this the right place?

It was a very political show...

 

[cooleddie74]

 

[Tarek71]

I think that it is futile to argue with statements that include a criticism of BLM and no criticism of white supremacism, facism, or police brutality in the US.

The show wasn't making any points in favor of white supremacism, Fascism or police brutality. Is it ok to criticize White Supremacists without also criticising BLM? I assume you do not insist on the reverse.

I was looking for the Falcon and the Winter Soldier discussion. Is this the right place?

I have no problem taking the discussion over to TNZ. But I do think it is fair to say that the show is steeped in political, cultural, social and racial issues. Any one arguing that the show failed in its handling of those issues, will likely have to involve evidence-based, fact-based discussion about said issues in order to show why and how it got it wrong.

Do they capitalize it as well?

Usually when I see them say "Stay Woke", they generally do capitalize it actually.

 

[Tarek71]

Changing two variables invalidates an argument. You need to compare White males with Black Males or White Females with Black Females--- or just Whites with Blacks. Keep in mind that Black Males make up about 8 percent of the population vs. 38 percent white males. In the meantime, the WP has already looked at the numbers:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

EDIT: I thought your numbers were a little low so I did my own research. According to statista.com, 1813 white people were killed by police since 2017, and 922 black people. There are more than 5x the number of white people than black, and only 2x the number of white people killed. This means that black people are killed by police at a rate 2.5x higher than white people.

Why is it ok to compare women of every race to White males on salary and pay, but not here? How many cents on the dollar do Black women, Asian Women, Hispanic women, White women make to every $1 a White male makes? Those are presented as fair comparisons. It also points out that gender gaps are vastly larger than racial ones, with none of the same concerns about "Female Privilege", "Male lives mattering less" or systemic discrimination.

The numbers used are FROM the Washington Post database. They are not "low", they are just the numbers from 2020. We can use previous years, but they show the same immense gender/race gaps.

I said earlier that yes, when Blacks are killed at over 2x the rate of Whites, that is called White Privilege, Systemic Racism, Black lives mattering less, etc. But when Whites are killed at over 2x the rate of Asians, this is not called Asian Privilege, Systemic Racism or White lives mattering less.