Punky!I distinctly remember what Trektoday confirmed was Shatner himself joining this very forum, and starting a thread to say hello. As I recall, he stuck around for maybe 13 hours.
Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
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I admit I forgot about Benson. But was Piper confirmed to be queer?
Disney's marked lack of queer representation in its major properties goes well beyond any one artist's vision. It's an obvious pattern of deliberate neglect.
Not quite in so many words, but when a drugged Deke let his feelings for Daisey slip, her response was Daisey wasn't quite her type, but she can see it.
This just seems over the top. There was barely ANY sexuality in this show at all. Some VERBAL flirting between Bucky and Sam's sister was about it, right?
Black Panther never had that kind of black lash... why should Falcon and the Winter SOldier get it?
I still stand with Sam
Black Panther never had that kind of black lash... why should Falcon and the Winter SOldier get it?
I still stand with Sam
Yeah, it is over the top. Aside from Bucky and Sarah, the only other moment indicating any sort of "flirting" was Sharon throwing a compliment at Sam as he was trying on clothes.
If you mean Anthony Mackie, I agree.
Honestly, when it comes to Disney not including gay people there is a reason, money. The problem with including gay characters in a big blockbuster movie that is going to be released around the world, is that there are a lot of countries that the movie would released in don't allow LGBTQ+ characters in their media. Now, yes it's stupid that this is a consideration when it comes to something like this, but we are talking about potential losing out on millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars, and that's all that's going to matter for a company like Disney. That's why when most of the big blockbusters do include gay characters it's either just kind of implied, but never outright stated, like Sulu and his husband in Star Trek Beyond, or it's something relatively minor and quick that can be easily cut around, like in Rise of Skywalker.
And in the case of Marvel, up until 2015 we had a notoriously biggoted SOB in charge in Ike Perlmutter, who refused to allow anybody but white guys to be the leads, and I don't remember it being stated outright, but I have a feeling that attitude probably extended to LGBTQ+ people too.
Just to be clear, I have absolutely no problem with gay people in these kinds of movies, I'm just stating sad fact.
I want to go back to the whole author intent things for a second, because it still seems kind of odd to me.
In my story I have a brother and (half) sister who spend a lot of time together, but it is all entirely platonic. Does this mean that if I don't want people to think they're sleeping together I have to have the one of them say it explicitly, even if it's perfectly clear from their behavior that isn't happening? And if I don't say it, and someone decides to interpret things that, am I not allowed to tell them they're wrong, since their interpretation is just as valid as mine?
I honestly can't think of anywhere in the story where something like that wouldn't feel completely random, and awkward.
And in the case of Marvel, up until 2015 we had a notoriously biggoted SOB in charge in Ike Perlmutter, who refused to allow anybody but white guys to be the leads, and I don't remember it being stated outright, but I have a feeling that attitude probably extended to LGBTQ+ people too.
Just to be clear, I have absolutely no problem with gay people in these kinds of movies, I'm just stating sad fact.
I want to go back to the whole author intent things for a second, because it still seems kind of odd to me.
In my story I have a brother and (half) sister who spend a lot of time together, but it is all entirely platonic. Does this mean that if I don't want people to think they're sleeping together I have to have the one of them say it explicitly, even if it's perfectly clear from their behavior that isn't happening? And if I don't say it, and someone decides to interpret things that, am I not allowed to tell them they're wrong, since their interpretation is just as valid as mine?
I honestly can't think of anywhere in the story where something like that wouldn't feel completely random, and awkward.
You don't 'need' to write it in any particular way. And you can say whatever you want. But your interpretation remains your interpretation and if you're being intellectually honest, you can't (and shouldn't try to) force anyone else to agree to it. Whether it feels awkward to you or not really doesn't matter to someone else's engagement with the story. And really, the example you picked is so unlikely that it would be fairly ridiculous to even worry about to begin with. And that's without even getting into the fact that if you're really this bothered by people getting your story 'wrong' in any way, you maybe need to work on that for yourself or else consider a different career/hobby, because there are *always* going to be people who interpret your work differently than you do.
About author intent, I remember a story about Fahrenheit 451 Maybe it's apocryphal or I remember it badly, but it's a good example on the subject. At a lecture in a College Bradbury was saying that he conceived this novel as a criticism of the looming cultural distraction of technology, most notably television. But students interrupted him, explaining that he get it wrong and it was obviously a satire about censorship and an indictment of communist witch hunt-era America. No further words from the author could change the students' minds.
As an author, you can never control of what a reader will ultimately think.
IE - you could add specific/direct dialog from a character stating the relationship between the two is explicitly platonic; but a reader so inclined will come up with a rationalization that supports their personal belief about what the actual situation is.
As I understand it, Bradbury took two of his short stories, Bright Phoenix about book burning and censorship, and The Pedestrian about a man arrested for walking at night - which no one else does because they are all indoors watching TV, and combined them into what would become Fahrenheit 451. Both were his takes on totalitarianism growing in society seen through different issues.
In your (possibly apocryphal) example both the lecture and the students' opinion are essentially correct. The novel has multiple layers and is a good example of how an author's intent can be hidden in plain sight.
I seriously doubt that Bradbury would completely ignore the Bright Phoenix roots. If this did actually happen, he was likely pointing out an aspect of the the novel that is generally overlooked.
That is an interesting example because Bradbury has said it is not about government censorship. It is about a culture where everyone becomes so sensitized, easily offended, and intolerent of viewpoints in books that do not agree with their own worldview that any literature of consequence has become intolerable to society.
Ok, finished the series finally. I had only seen the first couple of episodes when they came out, and just got back to it last week.
1. I never liked Sam getting the shield in Endgame. He is already "Falcon". That's pretty a f'n cool thing to be. He didn't need a promotion any more than Black Panther or Luke Cage need a "promotion" to Previously White Character. They are fine the way they are. It should never have been presented as if it were a "step up". It's an insult to Black characters.
If the actor wants to leave but Marvel/Disney want to keep the character of Cap, I can see them wanting a successor. Sam didn't make sense to me and he still doesn't. I do think they wanted a Black Cap however and he is Black and an established character with some connection with Cap and Bucky.
2. I saw all of the complaints about it being Woke trash on YouTube and didn't know what that was based on until I saw it the second half of the season.
Yes, it was heavy handed, preachy and painfully Woke. Sams speech at the end was groaningly cringe. The 'I am a Black man with Captain Americas shield, what don't I understand' was a bizarre and ridiculous statement. However, this show is being made during the national unhinged hysteria of BLM and Antifa. We are steeped in the ideologically driven hyperbole about the CRT/Woke notion of the US being a "matrix of oppression". A cishetero, White supremacist, Patriarchal, Ableist tyranny. Intersecting "systems" (however imaginary) that allegedly privilege and benefit some while disadvantaging and marginalizing others.
The US has been running a dirty war in Syria for nearly a decade. It facilitates arms that ended up in the hands of Isis and Al Qaeda. It trainwrecked Libya and left it in chaos, with the reopening of 21st century slavemarkets and human traffickers profitting off of desperate migrants and refugees wanting to go to Europe. It sells billions in weapons to a Saudi regime that funds terrorism and is making a wasteland of Yemen.
But by all means, what is "fraught" about wearing the red, white and blue is Sam being Black. Whoa, wtf? With a larger story about refugees, shattered nations and billions living in fear, and destitution, what an amazingly missed opportunity to address a wider range of global, and far more serious problems than First World Sam has ever experienced. Sam had never been "oppressed". Neither has Anthony Mackie. No, being Black with Caps shield does NOT mean he "understands" anything. Certainly not places like Syria, Yemen or Libya. Not even close.
3. I guess the Wakandans repaired his shield. That makes sense given their tech and knowledge of vibranium.
4. Loved the Carter heel-turn. Not sure why that is getting such heat. She is now incomparably more interesting than she was before. The idea that she is a Carter and therefore there is some genetic predisposition to goodness is bizarre.
5. Walker was ridiculous. He never comes across as this amazing, brave soldier with a chest full of medals. He's deeply mentally unstable by the end and for no apparent reason. The showrunners wanted to make commentaries about his "privilege" (insert: groan) and support their bizarre notion that the 2021 US Govt would never want a Black Captain America. Because this is 1955 we live in guys. Not the America that elected a Black President.
Hopefully Spellman never writes another line of a Marvel show.
5/10 for the season. WandaVision was better. Jessica Jones, Luke Cage were better. It doesn't even touch Loki, the best Marvel series along with Daredevil IMHO. However it's no worse or even a little better than Inhumans (low bar), Iron Fist and Cloak and Dagger (which was absolutely awful).
1. I never liked Sam getting the shield in Endgame. He is already "Falcon". That's pretty a f'n cool thing to be. He didn't need a promotion any more than Black Panther or Luke Cage need a "promotion" to Previously White Character. They are fine the way they are. It should never have been presented as if it were a "step up". It's an insult to Black characters.
If the actor wants to leave but Marvel/Disney want to keep the character of Cap, I can see them wanting a successor. Sam didn't make sense to me and he still doesn't. I do think they wanted a Black Cap however and he is Black and an established character with some connection with Cap and Bucky.
2. I saw all of the complaints about it being Woke trash on YouTube and didn't know what that was based on until I saw it the second half of the season.
Yes, it was heavy handed, preachy and painfully Woke. Sams speech at the end was groaningly cringe. The 'I am a Black man with Captain Americas shield, what don't I understand' was a bizarre and ridiculous statement. However, this show is being made during the national unhinged hysteria of BLM and Antifa. We are steeped in the ideologically driven hyperbole about the CRT/Woke notion of the US being a "matrix of oppression". A cishetero, White supremacist, Patriarchal, Ableist tyranny. Intersecting "systems" (however imaginary) that allegedly privilege and benefit some while disadvantaging and marginalizing others.
The US has been running a dirty war in Syria for nearly a decade. It facilitates arms that ended up in the hands of Isis and Al Qaeda. It trainwrecked Libya and left it in chaos, with the reopening of 21st century slavemarkets and human traffickers profitting off of desperate migrants and refugees wanting to go to Europe. It sells billions in weapons to a Saudi regime that funds terrorism and is making a wasteland of Yemen.
But by all means, what is "fraught" about wearing the red, white and blue is Sam being Black. Whoa, wtf? With a larger story about refugees, shattered nations and billions living in fear, and destitution, what an amazingly missed opportunity to address a wider range of global, and far more serious problems than First World Sam has ever experienced. Sam had never been "oppressed". Neither has Anthony Mackie. No, being Black with Caps shield does NOT mean he "understands" anything. Certainly not places like Syria, Yemen or Libya. Not even close.
3. I guess the Wakandans repaired his shield. That makes sense given their tech and knowledge of vibranium.
4. Loved the Carter heel-turn. Not sure why that is getting such heat. She is now incomparably more interesting than she was before. The idea that she is a Carter and therefore there is some genetic predisposition to goodness is bizarre.
5. Walker was ridiculous. He never comes across as this amazing, brave soldier with a chest full of medals. He's deeply mentally unstable by the end and for no apparent reason. The showrunners wanted to make commentaries about his "privilege" (insert: groan) and support their bizarre notion that the 2021 US Govt would never want a Black Captain America. Because this is 1955 we live in guys. Not the America that elected a Black President.
Hopefully Spellman never writes another line of a Marvel show.
5/10 for the season. WandaVision was better. Jessica Jones, Luke Cage were better. It doesn't even touch Loki, the best Marvel series along with Daredevil IMHO. However it's no worse or even a little better than Inhumans (low bar), Iron Fist and Cloak and Dagger (which was absolutely awful).
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It's weird seeing the term "woke" on a Star Trek board of all places.
Thankfully easy to dismiss.
Thankfully easy to dismiss.
Why would it be weird seeing it here? It's everywhere. And it is the term the Woke use to refer to themselves. They coined it.
People can hand wave whatever they like. And if people liked the show, then like it. No one has to agree with me. But there is something unsatisfying about "eye rolls" and hand wave "dismissal" with nothing articulated as to why this should be dismissed. Either way, continue to enjoy the show.
I have never seen anyone refer to them as woke anywhere.
Only ever seen it thrown around as an insult.
Same as the German terms Gutmensch and linksgrün-versifft
Edt: linksgrün-versifft (leftgreen-filthy) actually started out as an insult, but progressives have started to claim it as a "badge of honor" to be called that for doing something right that pisses off the extreme right.
Only ever seen it thrown around as an insult.
Same as the German terms Gutmensch and linksgrün-versifft
Edt: linksgrün-versifft (leftgreen-filthy) actually started out as an insult, but progressives have started to claim it as a "badge of honor" to be called that for doing something right that pisses off the extreme right.
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I'm awaiting the moment when you will use the word "SJW", stating that it is an absolutely neutral term with no negative implications.
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