Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[Tarek71]

I have never seen anyone refer to them as woke anywhere.
Only ever seen it thrown around as an insult.
Same as the German terms Gutmensch and linksgrün-versifft

Edt: linksgrün-versifft (leftgreen-filthy) actually started out as an insult, but progressives have started to claim it as a "badge of honor" to be called that for doing something right that pisses off the extreme right.

It comes from "Stay Woke". It is a term used by the Woke to refer to themselves. It is used by the UnWoke as a perjorative, since they oppose Wokeness. So obviously it is a negative association for opponents. I do not buy it is just an insult. But you should use whatever terms you like.

 

[Tarek71]

I'm awaiting the moment when you will use the word "SJW", stating that it is an absolutely neutral term with no negative implications".

"Woke" was invented by the Woke to describe themselves.

 

[Skipper]

From Wikipedia (and relative sources):

Woke has become an insult used by opponents of movements such as Black Lives Matter, often to mock or belittle supporters of such causes.[70] Among American conservatives, the term is often used mockingly or sarcastically.[19] FiveThirtyEight's Perry Bacon Jr. writes that as of 2021, woke is mainly a pejorative used by centrists and conservatives to denote progressive politics that emphasize race or identity, often alongside the idea that critics of "woke" ideas are the victims of cancel culture.[8] Bacon connects this "anti-woke posture" to the Republican Party's longstanding promotion of backlash politics, such as white backlash and conservative backlash in response to political gains by African Americans and changing cultural norms respectively.[71]

 

[Tarek71]

From Wikipedia (and relative sources):

Woke has become an insult used by opponents of movements such as Black Lives Matter, often to mock or belittle supporters of such causes.[70] Among American conservatives, the term is often used mockingly or sarcastically.[19] FiveThirtyEight's Perry Bacon Jr. writes that as of 2021, woke is mainly a pejorative used by centrists and conservatives to denote progressive politics that emphasize race or identity, often alongside the idea that critics of "woke" ideas are the victims of cancel culture.[8] Bacon connects this "anti-woke posture" to the Republican Party's longstanding promotion of backlash politics, such as white backlash and conservative backlash in response to political gains by African Americans and changing cultural norms respectively.[71]

Yes, and in the rest of the article speaks to it's use BY Woke people, to describe themselves. Toward the end of the article, in the section on "21st Century Backlash" they mention how it is used. As a negative by opponents. Because they disagree with the Woke.

But we see here what happens when we try to talk about this. We fall down into a semantic rabbit hole. "CRT" is the same. Disingenuous Hair-splits, dodges, and semantic gymnastics to sidestep the substance of these criticism. Instead, an endless spiral of arguments about the definition of a word.

 

[Mudd]

We are steeped in the ideologically driven hyperbole about the CRT/Woke notion of the US being a "matrix of oppression". A cishetero, White supremacist, Patriarchal, Ableist tyranny. Intersecting "systems"....that allegedly privilege and benefit some while disadvantaging and marginalizing others.

And the folks who say this are right, so I don't see what your objection to it is.

 

[Anwar]

The showrunners wanted to make commentaries about his "privilege" (insert: groan) and support their bizarre notion that the 2021 US Govt would never want a Black Captain America. Because this is 1955 we live in guys. Not the America that elected a Black President.

Obama had his US Citizenship questioned purely to keep him from becoming President, I think that says it all.

 

[Tarek71]

And the folks who say this are right, so I don't see what your objection to it is.

The objection is that they are not right about that. There is no such thing as "the Patriarchy". Nor is there a "system" called "Whiteness" or the "White Supremacy". As a result of these "systems" being purely imaginary, there is no systemic "benefit" or "privilege" bestowed on anyone.

We see this with BLM. When Blacks are killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Whites, this is cited as "White Privilege", "Systemic Racism", Black lives mattering less. Whites are killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Asians. That's odd. Similar divide. Asian Privilege? Anti-White "systemic" racism? White lives mattering less?

Nevermind White males killed at dozens of times the rate of Black females. Vastly larger divide, yet no concern over "Female Privilege", Black female lives mattering more or a systemic misandry. What happened to Breonna Taylor was 1 in 20 million event. Forty times more unlikely than being killed by lightning. With George Floyd is was only 1 in 1 million. These "systems" are not trying too hard.

The examples used for the existing Woke narrative here are statistical cherry picks to try an advance a false, bullshit narrative. Out of context of other numbers that may change how the overall picture is and out of context of other, better explanations for group average differences in outcomes.

 

[Tarek71]

Obama had his US Citizenship questioned purely to keep him from becoming President, I think that says it all.

Then he got elected by 10 million votes in a landslide. If Avengers were real in our World, does anyone think Obama would refuse a Black candidate to replace Rogers? Does anyone believe that?

 

[Mudd]

The objection is that they are not right about that. There is no such thing as "the Patriarchy". Nor is there are "system" called "Whiteness" or the "White Supremacy". As a result of these "systems" being purely imaginary, there is no systemic "benefit" or "privilege" bestowed on anyone.

We see this with BLM. When Blacks are killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Whites, this is cited as "White Privilege", "Systemic Racism", Black lives mattering less. Whites are killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Asians. That's odd. Similar divide. Asian Privilege? Anti-White systemic racism? White lives mattering less?

Nevermind White males killed at dozens of times the rate of Black females. Vastly larger divide, yet no concern over "Female Privilege", Black female lives mattering more or a systemic misandry. What happened to Breonna Taylor was 1 in 20 million event. Forty times a higher rate than being killed by lightning. With George Floyd is was only 1 in 1 million. These "systems" are not trying too hard.

The examples used for the existing Woke narrative here are statistical cherry picks to try an advance a false, bullshit narrative. Out of context of other numbers that may change how the overall picture is and out of context of other, better explanations for group average differences in outcomes.

The only cherry picking going on here is yours. Everything you stated there is misrepresented, disingenous or simply not so.

The so-called "woke" folk are right, and the sooner everyone gets over this resentment about being held accountable the better off we'll all be.

 

[Tarek71]

The only cherry picking going on here is yours. Everything you stated there is misrepresented, disingenous or simply not so.

The so-called "woke" folk are right, and the sooner everyone gets over this resentment about being held accountable the better off we'll all be.

Sidestepping! What is "simply not so"? Can you tell me? The Woke folks are wrong. That is clear from the data. Nothing to do with being "held accountable". Who is "accountable" for Whites being killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Asians? What does "accountable" even mean here?

 

[Anwar]

The objection is that they are not right about that. There is no such thing as "the Patriarchy". Nor is there a "system" called "Whiteness" or the "White Supremacy". As a result of these "systems" being purely imaginary, there is no systemic "benefit" or "privilege" bestowed on anyone.

Spoken like someone who has never suffered from NOT being in the Overclass.

We see this with BLM. When Blacks are killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Whites, this is cited as "White Privilege", "Systemic Racism", Black lives mattering less. Whites are killed by Police at over 2x the rate of Asians. That's odd. Similar divide. Asian Privilege? Anti-White "systemic" racism? White lives mattering less?

Population demographics.

Then he got elected by 10 million votes in a landslide.

And certain people were to utterly horrified at this that they made absolutely certain the next President would be nothing like the last 8 years. And those people certainly got their wish.

I can safely say that Obama's election is what caused the Altright boom that in turn led to the expansion of BLM and Antifa to deal with the Right Winger extremists.

 

[Skipper]

The objection is that they are not right about that. There is no such thing as "the Patriarchy". Nor is there a "system" called "Whiteness" or the "White Supremacy". As a result of these "systems" being purely imaginary, there is no systemic "benefit" or "privilege" bestowed on anyone.

Wow! The sad thing is that you are really believing this.

 

[Tarek71]

Spoken like someone who has never suffered from NOT being in the Overclass.



Population demographics.



And certain people were to utterly horrified at this that they made absolutely certain the next President would be nothing like the last 8 years. And those people certainly got their wish.

Population demographics? That is the RATE per capita. That already takes into account the differences in relative population size.

"The Overclass"? That's not an argument or an answer. That's a hand wave non-answer, like "check your privilege".

Obama was reelected in 2012. Where was the horror, then? He did better with Whites in 2012 than Hillary did in 2016. And Trump did better with black women, Black men, and Asian and Hispanic men and women in 2020 than he did in 2016. It was the swing back of a couple of % among Whites that pushed Biden over the top.

 

[Tarek71]

Wow! The sad thing is that you are really believing this.

Evasive non-answer!

The data is what this is based on. And there is no evidence that these completely invisible, empirically undetectable "systems" exist.

 

[Tarek71]

Obama or Biden would appoint a Black Captain America if that was real in our world. It is absolute nonsense to say that no one would want a Black CA. Trump probably would too, but he'd pick someone crazy for it, like Floyd Mayweather Jr or Kanye West.

 

[Noname Given]

Now this is what I call a solid, reasoned, thorough argument! Well done!

I think it's a valid reply to your review myself. Doesn't waste time and sums up the response nicely to your opinion, and IMO is an accurate response.

YMMV.

 

[Tarek71]

I think it's a valid reply to your review myself. Doesn't waste time and sums up the response nicely to your opinion, and IMO is an accurate response.

YMMV.

And like all the others though, not a good articulation for why that is. Another baseless hand wave at odd with the evidence.

Yes, YMMV. I said that. People who enjoyed the show, should go on enjoying it. But "eye rolls", hand waves and other evasive non answers are certainly a bit flaccid. But, carry on.

 

[Anwar]

Population demographics?

Yes, fewer nonwhites all in all means that their death rates are still higher. And more brutal and unnecessary.

"The Overclass"? That's not an argument or an answer. That's a hand wave non-answer, like "check your privilege"

Your denial of class privilege is another fail on your side.

Obama was reelected in 2012. Where was the horror, then?

The Altright exploded in popularity and numbers in the 2010s for a reason.

He did better with Whites in 2012 than Hillary did in 2016.

Because those horrified at Obama getting elected twice were now more determined than every to make sure the next President would be one of "theirs" and gave us Trump.

And Trump did better with black women, Black men, and Asian and Hispanic men and women in 2020 than he did in 2016. It was the swing back of a couple of % among Whites that pushed Biden over the top.

And led to the Altrighters attempting an armed insurrection. Shows how people really felt.

Obama or Biden would appoint a Black Captain America if that was real in our world. It is absolute nonsense to say that no one would want a Black CA.

No one in Trumps' America, when this show was being made.

 

[Tarek71]

Yes, fewer nonwhites all in all means that their death rates are still higher. And more brutal and unnecessary.

1. The numbers quoted already take that into account. That is what PER CAPITA means. Whites are killed at over 2x the RATE of Asian. Not that there are 2x as many Whites killed.

2. The AltRight is a tiny faction and an not much of a factor. And Obama won reelection with more Whites than Hilary got.

3. Trump did better with POC than Romney did in 2012, and about the same with Whites. So the "White back lash" argument doesnt wash. Hillary, who is White, did a couple of points worse than Biden or Obama. Those Whites went to Libertarians and Greens mostly. Both of which were NeverTrump parties.

4. There was no "armed insurrection". If you mean 01/06, there was no insurrection. And they were unarmed, did not intentionally kill anyone, and only a tiny fraction even attempted to enter the Capitol Building and when they did there was a small riot with some vandalism. Mostly we saw people wandering the hallways of the Capitol and taking selfies. But Buffalo Hat guy with a spear and animal skins was not threat to the Republic. He was just a fringe crank.

And of course, all of this was dwarfed by months of rioting in Portland. To say nothing of 100s of occasions of rioting, looting and arson with BLM/Antifa.

5. No one wanted a Black Captain America under Trump? He did lose the popular vote you know. Twice. And even he would pick a Black CA too. I just think he would pick a Black celebrity he liked.

 

[Anwar]

1. The numbers quoted already take that into account. That is what PER CAPITA means. Whites are killed at over 2x the RATE of Asian. Not that there are 2x as many Whites killed.

Juked Stats.

2. The AltRight is a tiny faction and an not much of a factor.

Tell that to the January Attack.

3. Trump did better with POC than Romney did in 2012, and about the same with Whites. So the "White back lash" argument doesnt wash. Hillary, who is White, did a couple of points worse than Biden or Obama.

Because when Hilary ran against Trump, it was when the Overclass were determined to make sure she lost and their Man won.

4. There was no "armed insurrection". If you mean 01/06, there was no insurrection.

Rejecting Reality, is it?

And of course, all of this was dwarfed by months of rioting in Portland. To say nothing of 100s of occasions of rioting, looting and arson with BLM/Antifa.

Nothing irreparable, nothing major. Nothing like trying to murder the Senate and the VP.

5. No one wanted a Black Captain America under Trump?

Not if they could have a blonde blue eyed white guy.