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The BORG, and the Lost potential

Arpy said:
They love scene-chewing villains but don't get that storms are scarier. Some mustache-twirling Queen is instantly small and silly, and we know that deeply. She's a convention we're used to. A force of Borg, a giant of them standing on a humanoid anthill, opaque to immediate scrutiny...that's scary. It's the fear of the singularity, of more intelligent beings out there beyond our level, and of our own future. A Queen tells you there is still individuality. There's art and pleasure. A faceless Collective of Borg tells you there's something inside you that will betray and reallocate you to a stronger (quasi-evolutionary) unit. It's the fear that the formless machine of life succeeds in breaking the inefficient individual.
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Well said. Your words are integral to why those TNG episodes defined what we thought of The Borg.
 
I think it would be interesting if someday they showed how the Borg started, because that's still a big mystery to me, what humanoid species would voluntarily transform themselves into these mechanized zombies without a personal thought? and why?
 
I think it happ
Discofan said:
I think it would be interesting if someday they showed how the Borg started, because that's still a big mystery to me, what humanoid species would voluntarily transform themselves into these mechanized zombies without a personal thought? and why?
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I think it happened slowly. Like us, it was smart phones, then (modest) cybernetic enhancements, then neural sharing... A generation or two later, there’s economic hardship and people (and angsty adolescents) get hooked on it. Maybe mind merging is also used to compete with other nations, economically and otherwise. Philosophically questions are asked whether individuality is even a thing, or whether it isn’t everyone’s duty to merge for the war effort. Maybe it’s more pleasant at first like a mind meld, then, when the Collective really takes over, pleasant or pretty (their bodies) become less and less a priority.

I just want it to happen a long time ago, in a DQ system far far away. With some alien looking aliens from an alien culture that, regardless, we can see ourselves in.
 
For me it started out as an effort at both post humanism as a species and as a civilization, going beyond the limitations of the individual and its failures.
 
Arpy said:
They love scene-chewing villains but don't get that storms are scarier. Some mustache-twirling Queen is instantly small and silly, and we know that deeply. She's a convention we're used to. A force of Borg, a giant of them standing on a humanoid anthill, opaque to immediate scrutiny...that's scary. It's the fear of the singularity, of more intelligent beings out there beyond our level, and of our own future.
Click to expand...

But again, if they're too powerful and also unfamiliar, let alone if later appearances try to make them more powerful and massive, how would you defeat them? I think the semi-classic version of the Borg being defeated in "TBoBW" is generally considered OK but only because they had to be defeated in some way.
 
suarezguy said:
But again, if they're too powerful and also unfamiliar, let alone if later appearances try to make them more powerful and massive, how would you defeat them? I think the semi-classic version of the Borg being defeated in "TBoBW" is generally considered OK but only because they had to be defeated in some way.
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I don’t buy this argument, and I’ve written upthread about how I’d defeat them. I can think of at least three other ways as well without lessening their power at all. This is sci-fi, the realm of possibility.
 
Arpy said:
They love scene-chewing villains but don't get that storms are scarier. Some mustache-twirling Queen is instantly small and silly, and we know that deeply. She's a convention we're used to. A force of Borg, a giant of them standing on a humanoid anthill, opaque to immediate scrutiny...that's scary. It's the fear of the singularity, of more intelligent beings out there beyond our level, and of our own future. A Queen tells you there is still individuality. There's art and pleasure. A faceless Collective of Borg tells you there's something inside you that will betray and reallocate you to a stronger (quasi-evolutionary) unit. It's the fear that the formless machine of life succeeds in breaking the inefficient individual.
Click to expand...
I mostly agree here, but the problem is the Borg collective itself is faceless, and, IMO, for storytelling purposes it is not always that great to have a faceless villain that you can't really interact with.
 
saladdays said:
I mostly agree here, but the problem is the Borg collective itself is faceless, and, IMO, for storytelling purposes it is not always that great to have a faceless villain that you can't really interact with.
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Only if the story you’re trying to tell is the typical mustache-twirler. Star Trek IV, The Perfect Storm, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Twister, The Day After Tomorrow, Meteor, and 2001: A Space Odyssey immediately come to mind as examples of hit movies with no Khan/Zod/Queen-like baddie. The story could be about the villain/problem without having to spend much time talking directly to them. (i.e. BoBW)
 
Arpy said:
Only if the story you’re trying to tell is the typical mustache-twirler. Star Trek IV, The Perfect Storm, The Day the Earth Stood Still, Twister, The Day After Tomorrow, Meteor, and 2001: A Space Odyssey immediately come to mind as examples of hit movies with no Khan/Zod/Queen-like baddie. The story could be about the villain/problem without having to spend much time talking directly to them. (i.e. BoBW)
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Right, in short doses those villains can definitely work. But I'm not sure a villain like that is sustainable for a longer period of time.
 
saladdays said:
Right, in short doses those villains can definitely work. But I'm not sure a villain like that is sustainable for a longer period of time.
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They’re no sustainable as your main baddie week in and out, like the Cardassians on DS9, but they only need a handful of stories with them, and that I think is sustainable.
 
Arpy said:
I don’t buy this argument, and I’ve written upthread about how I’d defeat them. I can think of at least three other ways as well without lessening their power at all. This is sci-fi, the realm of possibility.
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But is there more to the Borg than being automatons? In "I, Borg" Picard and crew figured a way to eradicate the species, but chose to not go there. I'm sure if it was executed, there could be means to overcome that virus, by just separating the issue from the collective. Picard gave a clue to his crew about making the Borg sleep, I would believe the Borg would do a similar pattern if they were exposed to Geordi's virus program just blow that part of the collective up!

It's the Trek norm to believe the human condition is the positive side of everything for hybrids... well except for TOS universe Mr. Spock, why hasn't there been a take where the Borg abductions were a blessing in disguise for a particular race or species?

As for a face lift of the Borg, I had images in my head of a species who similar to an octopus has Borg cybernetic circuitry all of its body.
 
Ghost said:
Hello STEPhon IT,



My mistake, sorry if it felt like I was putting words in your mouth.

"Distant Origins" was good, I also liked "Blink of an Eye" (almost wrote "Wink of an Eye" because it sounded similar. Wrong series however)
My favorite thing Voyager added to Star Trek lore is the Hirogen, how cliche they may be to some people.
I liked their initial concept, a race that sees other space faring species as nothing else but prey to test themselves against and which diplomacy in general is impossible with.
They might not be as deep as Gul Dukat or the Cardassians but not every protagonist needs to be. Sometimes you just need antagonists for the protagonists to test themselves against that don't have deep motivations.



That is one of the reasons why I dislike prequels in general, people who make them and claim that they respect continuity/sequence of appearances and events so often get them wrong, either by coincidence or even deliberately.
The most fanatic fans start making excuses (their name wasn't mentioned. It was all covered up) and eventually the producers and writers need to play damage control in order to make the prequel tie into the preceding show that chronologically takes place after it.

You want to do a prequel? Then stick to the continuity and don't start playing loose and cute to get all kinds of lore breaking stuff past the radar.
And don't start dissing on the fans for being such sticklers for continuity or claim that continuity prevents the writers from telling new stories.
That last one is often an excuse to bring back favorite characters and plot devices and pretend its all new or try to up the original instead of creating something new of their own.

Producers and writers knew that limitations would come with making a prequel and now they complain that they don't like these because they want to play with the fan favorites.

Edit; and like you said, sometimes they want to do it to claim that they did it first. It is so damn childish and arrogant.

You are not the first who brings up the theory that Discovery takes place in its own timeline. It is something that is being debated on the internet and Youtube. Several popular Youtube channels bring up that Prime not necessarily means "original timeline", simply a new one called Prime and that it was given this name to make Star Trek fans think that this was the timeline with Shatner's Kirk and Nimoy's Spock, Patrick Stewart's Picard etc. (I have no interest in debating this with people, if you think Prime is the original timeline fine but you do not need to contact me about it)

And yeah I also bring up the example of "Parallels". Heck Kurtzman has brought it up in the past.
There is one person on a Discovery dislike group who keeps bringing up that every after Enterprise and Discovery was changed/overwritten because Section 31 got their hands on a Borg corpse from First Contact and reverse engineered the technology. When I bring up "Parallels" or the Paradox issue (if First Contact no longer happens the Borg do not go back in time, thus there is no corpse in the past for Section 31 to reverse engineering. Therefore the original timeline must still exist) I don't get an answer or he keeps bringing up some fan theory video.
He doesn't even answer when I ask where it is mentioned on television when Section 31 got that Borg corpse.



Earth and the Federation is pretty much a backwater for the Borg as otherwise they would have send multiple ships. And preventing First Contact would not benefit the Borg, they want the Federation to come into existence to assimilate its technologies and resources.

Regarding story ideas, yeah I would also not bring back Earth as it has been done to death.

Still don't have a good idea for a final TNG-Borg story to share with you. Only thoughts that I would like the Enterprise crew and the Titan crew to team up.


Edit: almost forgot this, STEPhon IT, if you like or don't mind comics, look up a series called Star Trek New Visions that was made by John Byrne, in particular issue 6 in which Captain Kirk and the Enterprise crew face a Borg ship.
And don't worry if it sounds it would break continuity, Byrne actually pulled it off without it affecting the Enterprise D's crew encounter with them.
This is a rather non standard comic however. Instead of being drawn it is made up of still from episodes combined with new background and 3D models.
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Ooops! I missed this, Ghost, sorry about that. About the Borg that is interesting. It gives the implication the Borg used to live in an Earth type world from their past. As for John Byrne, I would like to explore some of his interpretations of Trek, especially his "Crew" series which I would love to read. There's nothing digital as far as I know for that series but I hear it's as close to a logical prequel to TOS than anything ever done on TV (ENT & DISCO).
 
STEPhon IT said:
It's the Trek norm to believe the human condition is the positive side of everything for hybrids... well except for TOS universe Mr. Spock, why hasn't there been a take where the Borg abductions were a blessing in disguise for a particular race or species?
Click to expand...
The Borg are the eradication of a species. Just their raw material is used. Their brains are overwhelmed and forced to think at whatever the alien Hive orders. There’s no self-awareness to feel blessed in any way.

As for a face lift of the Borg, I had images in my head of a species who similar to an octopus has Borg cybernetic circuitry all of its body.
Click to expand...
That would be really cool. I’m always for more non-humanoids in Trek.
 
Arpy said:
They love scene-chewing villains but don't get that storms are scarier. Some mustache-twirling Queen is instantly small and silly, and we know that deeply. She's a convention we're used to. A force of Borg, a giant of them standing on a humanoid anthill, opaque to immediate scrutiny...that's scary. It's the fear of the singularity, of more intelligent beings out there beyond our level, and of our own future. A Queen tells you there is still individuality. There's art and pleasure. A faceless Collective of Borg tells you there's something inside you that will betray and reallocate you to a stronger (quasi-evolutionary) unit. It's the fear that the formless machine of life succeeds in breaking the inefficient individual.
Click to expand...


In the new Picard series, I can see a new collective turning the Queen (kicking and screaming) into just another drone again. Broken down piece by piece. Clive Barker once joked that they are really just cenobites.

Go with that.
 
In Q Who, the Borg were only interested in tech. Now--they are only interested in flesh--and how to tear it.
 
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