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The BORG, and the Lost potential

Perhaps there isn't any potential that has been lost. Borg was a unique enemy.
However, I'm not into Borg stuff outside TNG, maybe TNG was their place to shine and that's it.
 
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I have a bit of a soft spot for Season 2 "Regeneration" because it has the Borg in it and I like the Assimilated Transport but the episode should not have been made as it does not belong in this period and is a lot of fan wank (and no, we did not need a "prequel" to explain why the Enterprise D crew met the Borg in "Q Who". Q put them in place of a nearby cube vessel, the ship was not on its way to the Federation. I dislike these kind of fan excuses but that apparently "absolves" an episode for bad writing)
You forgot that the Borg were hinted at in the episode "The Neutral Zone", which occurs before "Q Who" at the obvious eponymous location.
 
While I agree with a lot of your points I am going to have to disagree on Voyager being crap. I liked that show or at least Season 4 and 5 a lot (and some episodes of Seasons 6 and 7) ;)
Enterprise is also for me the weakest Star Trek (I don't watch Disco so I cannot judge on that). Season 4 is tolerable but a lot of fan fic IMO, partly done to fix the damage of the previous three seasons.
There are some episodes of Voyager were descent, for me most of the episodes centered on Tuvok, B'Elanna, & Kes were the ones I appreciated but the one I loved the most was "Distant Origins". As for Voyager being crap? I never said that.

I have a bit of a soft spot for Season 2 "Regeneration" because it has the Borg in it and I like the Assimilated Transport but the episode should not have been made as it does not belong in this period and is a lot of fan wank (and no, we did not need a "prequel" to explain why the Enterprise D crew met the Borg in "Q Who". Q put them in place of a nearby cube vessel, the ship was not on its way to the Federation. I dislike these kind of fan excuses but that apparently "absolves" an episode for bad writing)

And the whole Phlox thing with radiation is good indicator that the writer had kind of run into a wall with this story. They wanted to have assimilation in this but did not want one of the main characters be permanently removed.
Nah! Hollywood has a tendency of making their characters stand out even when it could be detrimental to the franchise lore; like designing an engineering room which would make Scotty from TOS jealous. The whole Phlox thing is an interesting idea and outcome if it didn't make everyone from TNG universe appear ignorant. These are the dangers of making so called prequels because the writers are not doing their homework and what's more shocking which I discovered were the showrunners (ENT and now DISCO) are encouraging them not to research or rewatch TOS or TNG episodes. So what's the point of making a prequel??? To rewrite what was and claim they did it first! Now we have an Enterprise on Disco where everyone on that forum is highly praising and making excuses of how it's right, but negate the fact that it alters the history of the original Starship Enterprise. Feh! I've come to the conclusion Disco and ENT are not prequels of TOS, as a matter of fact they're from another universe entirely. Remember TNG episode "Parallels"?

regarding what kind of story you would like to see I get what you mean. Picard not a man obsessed with the destroying Borg because he wants revenge for what they did to him in "Best of Both Worlds" (having come to peace with it during the series in such episodes as "I, Borg") and not another plot in which the Borg seek to assimilate the people on Earth/The Federation or engage in time travel etc.

Would be cool to have another opening like "First Contact" with a very impressive space battle but then you would have to do something with it to turn it into a 120 minute or longer movie.

Really cracking my mind here now. Usually when I have a good plot device or focus I can think of a plot around it but right now nothing wants to come to mind. (already told you why I am not happy with the idea of "Starfleet goes to war against the Borg". Not much character stuff can be told with it and it is more the plot for a video game)
Insurrection was a terrible movie but I imagined what if the Borg was interjected into the story? To me the Borg are game changers, the character has to have their full attention on them. The Borg should've been tired of trying to attack Earth, just not very interesting. Also, attempting the prevention of humans to go into space is not a high concept for a species like the Borg.
 
Also, attempting the prevention of humans to go into space is not a high concept for a species like the Borg.

Yeah the whole concept of First Contact falls apart pretty easily. Why would the Borg go back in time and assimilate a bunch of drunken post-apocalyptic hicks, when if they had just sent multiple cubes into federation space, it would have been game over. The Federation also wasn't anything special in terms of their technological advancement. it always seemed like they were just wanting to assimilate the feds for more meat for the machine.

In terms of missed opportunities, I think the Borg would have worked better, if the technological component had been removed, and they were depicted as a lovecraftian, cosmic horror god thing that wanted to incorporate all biological life into itself
 
Yeah the whole concept of First Contact falls apart pretty easily. Why would the Borg go back in time and assimilate a bunch of drunken post-apocalyptic hicks, when if they had just sent multiple cubes into federation space, it would have been game over. The Federation also wasn't anything special in terms of their technological advancement. it always seemed like they were just wanting to assimilate the feds for more meat for the machine.

In terms of missed opportunities, I think the Borg would have worked better, if the technological component had been removed, and they were depicted as a lovecraftian, cosmic horror god thing that wanted to incorporate all biological life into itself

Plus it doesn't make sense, if they wanted to assimilate an Earth from the past why not make the time jump from the start and travel to Earth completely unopposed (I doubt there would have been an armada of primitive Vulcan vessels waiting for them given that they didn't even do that for the second Xindi attack!!!) instead of first getting fired at, badly damaged and only then do the time jump with a federation vessel on their tail? There's no way you could rationalize that.
 
Yeah the whole concept of First Contact falls apart pretty easily. Why would the Borg go back in time and assimilate a bunch of drunken post-apocalyptic hicks, when if they had just sent multiple cubes into federation space, it would have been game over. The Federation also wasn't anything special in terms of their technological advancement. it always seemed like they were just wanting to assimilate the feds for more meat for the machine.

In terms of missed opportunities, I think the Borg would have worked better, if the technological component had been removed, and they were depicted as a lovecraftian, cosmic horror god thing that wanted to incorporate all biological life into itself

Exactly. That's one of the reason why i can't understand some of the critic on Discovery when First Contact did open such a big plot hole.

By the way, if you think about it, the FC producers did the same to the Borg designwise as the Discovery producers did with the Klingons.

Not talking about if they did a better job with the Borg or with the Klingons.
 
Exactly. That's one of the reason why i can't understand some of the critic on Discovery when First Contact did open such a big plot hole.

By the way, if you think about it, the FC producers did the same to the Borg designwise as the Discovery producers did with the Klingons.

Not talking about if they did a better job with the Borg or with the Klingons.

The one thing about Discovery that I have could have done without is all the Klingonese, a couple of minutes for color Ok, but this was really too much. I see that now even more clearly that I am rewatching the series.
 
By the way, if you think about it, the FC producers did the same to the Borg designwise as the Discovery producers did with the Klingons.
Not really. They were progressively changing the look of the Borg with every appearance. The FC Borg largely looked like the dead Borg drone in the Voyager episode "Unity", which aired prior to First Contact. They just had a better budget to make the costumes look better, that's all.

By contrast, the Klingons in the Discovery pilot were a significant departure from previous portrayals. I actually didn't mind the costumes, but the prosthetic makeup was not well designed and made it hard for them to emote. The makeup from Star Trek: Into Darkness was a lot better.
 
Hello STEPhon IT,

There are some episodes of Voyager were descent, for me most of the episodes centered on Tuvok, B'Elanna, & Kes were the ones I appreciated but the one I loved the most was "Distant Origins". As for Voyager being crap? I never said that.

My mistake, sorry if it felt like I was putting words in your mouth.

"Distant Origins" was good, I also liked "Blink of an Eye" (almost wrote "Wink of an Eye" because it sounded similar. Wrong series however)
My favorite thing Voyager added to Star Trek lore is the Hirogen, how cliche they may be to some people.
I liked their initial concept, a race that sees other space faring species as nothing else but prey to test themselves against and which diplomacy in general is impossible with.
They might not be as deep as Gul Dukat or the Cardassians but not every protagonist needs to be. Sometimes you just need antagonists for the protagonists to test themselves against that don't have deep motivations.

These are the dangers of making so called prequels because the writers are not doing their homework and what's more shocking which I discovered were the showrunners (ENT and now DISCO) are encouraging them not to research or rewatch TOS or TNG episodes. So what's the point of making a prequel??? To rewrite what was and claim they did it first! Now we have an Enterprise on Disco where everyone on that forum is highly praising and making excuses of how it's right, but negate the fact that it alters the history of the original Starship Enterprise. Feh! I've come to the conclusion Disco and ENT are not prequels of TOS, as a matter of fact they're from another universe entirely. Remember TNG episode "Parallels"?

That is one of the reasons why I dislike prequels in general, people who make them and claim that they respect continuity/sequence of appearances and events so often get them wrong, either by coincidence or even deliberately.
The most fanatic fans start making excuses (their name wasn't mentioned. It was all covered up) and eventually the producers and writers need to play damage control in order to make the prequel tie into the preceding show that chronologically takes place after it.

You want to do a prequel? Then stick to the continuity and don't start playing loose and cute to get all kinds of lore breaking stuff past the radar.
And don't start dissing on the fans for being such sticklers for continuity or claim that continuity prevents the writers from telling new stories.
That last one is often an excuse to bring back favorite characters and plot devices and pretend its all new or try to up the original instead of creating something new of their own.

Producers and writers knew that limitations would come with making a prequel and now they complain that they don't like these because they want to play with the fan favorites.

Edit; and like you said, sometimes they want to do it to claim that they did it first. It is so damn childish and arrogant.

You are not the first who brings up the theory that Discovery takes place in its own timeline. It is something that is being debated on the internet and Youtube. Several popular Youtube channels bring up that Prime not necessarily means "original timeline", simply a new one called Prime and that it was given this name to make Star Trek fans think that this was the timeline with Shatner's Kirk and Nimoy's Spock, Patrick Stewart's Picard etc. (I have no interest in debating this with people, if you think Prime is the original timeline fine but you do not need to contact me about it)

And yeah I also bring up the example of "Parallels". Heck Kurtzman has brought it up in the past.
There is one person on a Discovery dislike group who keeps bringing up that every after Enterprise and Discovery was changed/overwritten because Section 31 got their hands on a Borg corpse from First Contact and reverse engineered the technology. When I bring up "Parallels" or the Paradox issue (if First Contact no longer happens the Borg do not go back in time, thus there is no corpse in the past for Section 31 to reverse engineering. Therefore the original timeline must still exist) I don't get an answer or he keeps bringing up some fan theory video.
He doesn't even answer when I ask where it is mentioned on television when Section 31 got that Borg corpse.

Insurrection was a terrible movie but I imagined what if the Borg was interjected into the story? To me the Borg are game changers, the character has to have their full attention on them. The Borg should've been tired of trying to attack Earth, just not very interesting. Also, attempting the prevention of humans to go into space is not a high concept for a species like the Borg.

Earth and the Federation is pretty much a backwater for the Borg as otherwise they would have send multiple ships. And preventing First Contact would not benefit the Borg, they want the Federation to come into existence to assimilate its technologies and resources.

Regarding story ideas, yeah I would also not bring back Earth as it has been done to death.

Still don't have a good idea for a final TNG-Borg story to share with you. Only thoughts that I would like the Enterprise crew and the Titan crew to team up.


Edit: almost forgot this, STEPhon IT, if you like or don't mind comics, look up a series called Star Trek New Visions that was made by John Byrne, in particular issue 6 in which Captain Kirk and the Enterprise crew face a Borg ship.
And don't worry if it sounds it would break continuity, Byrne actually pulled it off without it affecting the Enterprise D's crew encounter with them.
This is a rather non standard comic however. Instead of being drawn it is made up of still from episodes combined with new background and 3D models.
 
Yeah the whole concept of First Contact falls apart pretty easily. Why would the Borg go back in time and assimilate a bunch of drunken post-apocalyptic hicks, when if they had just sent multiple cubes into federation space, it would have been game over. The Federation also wasn't anything special in terms of their technological advancement. it always seemed like they were just wanting to assimilate the feds for more meat for the machine.

In terms of missed opportunities, I think the Borg would have worked better, if the technological component had been removed, and they were depicted as a lovecraftian, cosmic horror god thing that wanted to incorporate all biological life into itself
That's a great idea. This is something TNG should've explored. This is what a movie should bring out for an audience; something fresh and new. It's what I admired about TOS movies, some were stinkers but each film attempted to be significant and tried to do justice for their villains, and of course the importance of consistency of their characters.
 
Not really. They were progressively changing the look of the Borg with every appearance. The FC Borg largely looked like the dead Borg drone in the Voyager episode "Unity", which aired prior to First Contact. They just had a better budget to make the costumes look better, that's all.

By contrast, the Klingons in the Discovery pilot were a significant departure from previous portrayals. I actually didn't mind the costumes, but the prosthetic makeup was not well designed and made it hard for them to emote. The makeup from Star Trek: Into Darkness was a lot better.

Yes, there were minor design upgrades between the TNG episodes but no big overhaul like it was done for FC.

And as can be seen in the flashback scenes of Voyager's "Dark Frontier" they actually retconned the new Borg design to what it always was supposed to look like.

By the way the retcon started by FC wasn't even just a new design but also changed the way the Borg treated their dead, which were disintegraded during TNG, to either ignoring the corpses (like in FC) or disassembling them (in Voyager).
 
Yes, there were minor design upgrades between the TNG episodes but no big overhaul like it was done for FC.
If you look at the Klingons in TOS vs Star Trek: The Motion Picture or the Romulans in TOS vs TNG, they're changed to much they're practically unrecognizable. By contrast, the design of the Borg in FC look vaguely like what I'd expect movie Borg to look like, especially given media and games that had come out in the interim.
By the way the retcon started by FC wasn't even just a new design but also changed the way the Borg treated their dead, which were disintegraded during TNG, to either ignoring the corpses (like in FC) or disassembling them (in Voyager).
Oh, I never said they didn't retcon the nature of the Borg in FC. That they most certainly did. I just don't think the artistic changes were any more significant that what you'd typically see for a show transitioning to a movie franchise, where they have more money for costumes and makeup. In fact, the changes were rather tame by comparison. Keep in mind that you're talking about seeing the Borg on the big screen for the first time, eight years after "Q Who".
 
IIRC dead Borg only disintegrated after other drones removed components from them. I don't believe we get the chance to see that happen in FC, so I'm not sure we can really say there's been any change there?

However, when Picard returns to Engineering late in the film we don't see any Borg corpses, so perhaps we should assume the Borg did disintegrate their dead?
 
There was a lot of ideas which were not thought through during the movie FC and they were not interesting in the evolution of the Borg; what slowly crept into their lore was being a Borg was actually some kind of disease. Zapping opponents were not their modus operandi anymore, but rather an injection projectile*. It's all about the nano-babble and less about being bionic, when "The Best of Both Worlds" ran its two episodes none of that faux medical crap was needed to tell the story by the time Voyager adopted the Borg this bullsh*t was all about the species... which were now retconned they're actually not a species but instead a collective of monster victims sourced by a singled minded Queen. Technology is what the Borg wants and anything inferior it was the norm to simply ignore it... as if they were an ant walking on the ground.

I don't care what Memory Alpha calls them, I don't get my research from that illegitimate site. Any information I require I go back to what's true to the source and that's the episodes.
 
There was... [snip] the episodes.

I wouldn't dis on everything of Memory Alpha. In general they are a good source, it is just with so many rewrites of species, plot devices, etc that the canon becomes very messy.
Truth is that the Original Series was pretty messy sometimes because there was no "established" canon. This permitted a lot of freedom but also created a lot of inconsistencies like for example McCoy suggesting that Vulcan at some point was conquered and Spock I believe mentioned in some other episode that Vulcan was never conquered. (same episode perhaps)
In the end the people behind Memory Alpha like with Star Trek are just human, trying the best they can and make faults.

Anyway this was not what I wanted to respond on.
You mentioned in your post about how the concept of modus operandi of the Borg was changed, turning them/it into some kind of disease or infection that turned outsiders into Borg and turning the Collective into a large collection of assimilated species.

That is definitely something first introduced in First Contact and that was later continued in Voyager though I don't really mind it that much, or at least at the time.

But rewatching "Q Who" and "Best of Both Worlds" years ago made me think that the Borg were something else (more closer to what you hint at), a single race that during its development started to experiment and modify itself with cybernetics/technology until they would grow into the Borg Collective encountered in "Q Who".
During this if they ever had it they lost every concept of individuality and even gender (I think Q mentions in "Q Who" when Picard and the crew meet a Borg drone that it is neither a he or a she), perhaps now reproducing themselves artificially (not necessarily cloning) which explains the room with the babies.

Eventually they left their own part of space to look for other worlds with technology and resources they could use to further enhance themselves, conquering and destroying civilizations to take these.
Occasionally they would take a member and "Borgify" these in order to better understand a species, its way of behavior and tactics to properly deal with these. (eliminating any possible surprises that could cost the Borg resources)

Would you have preferred it if it had remained that way? The Borg being like this (a single cybernetically enhanced species) and only after the Federation's technologies and other resources but not assimilating its people?
 
I preferred what was on TNG and I thought the Borg came after the Federation because of their technology, I would've wanted the Borg to move on after The Best of Both Worlds and started searching for other advance worlds, but Starfleet would keep a close eye on them and they would be ready for them. The Borg would have to change or be a little different than the last ones. The dumb stuff on Voyager were ridiculous and not scary, there were too much explaining and also magical medical powers going on to make Seven special, but in turn making the Borg more like George A Romero in Space. The Borg is not the Living Dead, but something different, they're not spawned by witchcraft but through technology; something Federation craves.
 
They love scene-chewing villains but don't get that storms are scarier. Some mustache-twirling Queen is instantly small and silly, and we know that deeply. She's a convention we're used to. A force of Borg, a giant of them standing on a humanoid anthill, opaque to immediate scrutiny...that's scary. It's the fear of the singularity, of more intelligent beings out there beyond our level, and of our own future. A Queen tells you there is still individuality. There's art and pleasure. A faceless Collective of Borg tells you there's something inside you that will betray and reallocate you to a stronger (quasi-evolutionary) unit. It's the fear that the formless machine of life succeeds in breaking the inefficient individual.
 
Few posts here make me want to post my "theory" (once again) about the Borg and what happened with the Borg in TNG.

I'm not a huge fan of 'Descent' parts 1 and 2, so I like to think that the plan Picard had in 'I Borg' worked.
After Hugh went back to the collective, the Borg wasn't a collective anymore, they all became individuals, just like Hugh.

That fits nicely with the "trial of humanity", Enterprise crew frees the entire collective by orders from Picard who was turned into a Borg at one point.

Why was Picard so sure this plan would work? He had been a Borg and had knowledge about them that perhaps no one else had. If someone else had this information, that person must have been a member of the collective at some point and saved, like Picard was. In this "theory" the story with the Borg begins and ends in TNG. From 'Q Who' to 'I Borg'.
 
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