The BORG, and the Lost potential

[jaime]

Without discussing the finer points of "Best of Both Worlds", from a dramatic perspective, I see no reason not to make assimilation immediate and irreversible. There's a reason they use this approach in zombie films. One bite and you're a goner is pretty terrifying. Similarly, one poke of a nanoprobe injector means that you only have seconds before you're a Borg forever. Imagine someone phasering off their arm to prevent from becoming a Borg drone after being pricked by an injector.

The Cardassians strike me as more Fascist than Communist.

Locutus was a special case. Hence not lopping his arm off (though it was considered)
The Cardassian are both Fascististic and Communistic. Hence the Union. As with the Borg, Trek criticised extremes in its allegory (The Borg are both a communist hive mind and ‘the ultimate consumer’, The Ferengi are capitalist extremis, but...never think selling clothing to Ferengi women is a good earner, and are therefore more complex rather than the accusations bandied around them as stereotypes of real-world ethnic groups.)

 

[Qonundrum]

They were de-clawed in TNG, not Voyager. I do wish people would stop pretending otherwise.

After that, they ran their course. The end.

"Scorpion" did provide a momentary respite, even avoiding the Queen as I recall... as much as the Queen is novel and well-played by both actresses (it's more thanks to them than the Queen concept that makes the Queen watchable IMHO), I still prefer the Borg pre-Queen and pre-Locutus/during-Locutus. So many missteps after Locutus...

 

[Kronos]

Bord are similar to the mirror universe, a novel exciting concept destroyed by overuse.

 

[Tribble puncher]

Without discussing the finer points of "Best of Both Worlds", from a dramatic perspective, I see no reason not to make assimilation immediate and irreversible. There's a reason they use this approach in zombie films. One bite and you're a goner is pretty terrifying. Similarly, one poke of a nanoprobe injector means that you only have seconds before you're a Borg forever. Imagine someone phasering off their arm to prevent from becoming a Borg drone after being pricked by an injector.

The Cardassians strike me as more Fascist than Communist.

Actually yeah, and you can see the individual lose their mind over five minutes or so to bring home the agony that is being assimilated, like literally watching their personality being digested and broken down before your eyes, it's not an instant merciful transition. What I meant by north Korea is it was always implied that the Cardassians had lagged behind the other major powers technologically, by a couple of decades or so, their still dangerous, and a full war with them would be costly in manpower in equipment, but the Cardassians would have a chance at actually conquering a rival alpha quadrant power. The Romulans seem more like the Nazi's to me, because in some ways, they had more advanced tech than everybody else, and they weren't afraid of dangerous research or unethical methods to develop something.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

If someone is interested in the original plans for the Borg in BOBW, here they are:

Way more interesting than what became of them since First Contact and Voyager imo.

 

[STEPhon IT]

No one would blink if Kirk or Sisko pulled that off.

But they wouldn't. Kirk and Sisko (from 1st 3 seasons of DS9) were smarter than the Voyager writers and it's producers to understand it's not in the Borg's nature to make deals... with anyone.

 

[Anwar]

But they wouldn't.

I'm sure there'd have been some contrivance to protect them from the Borg, and the audience would've eaten it up.

 

[STEPhon IT]

It would still be terrible, it's like DS9 war seasons there were a lot of that sh*t where the producers made the Dominion such ridiculous super baddies it took Sisko to ask the Wormhole prophets to make them disappear. Just like that--done. They repeated the same nonsense at the end of the series where Odo simply liquid link with the leader and the war was over, neglecting the many times he linked with her and never mind manipulated her.

Jesus Christ! I mean, all Odo and Sisko needed to do was pull those two BS contrivances and it would've spared millions of Federation, and alien lives. As for Voyager and with DS9, and now Discovery, the audience will eat it up no matter how absurd it is.

 

[jaime]

It would still be terrible, it's like DS9 war seasons there were a lot of that sh*t where the producers made the Dominion such ridiculous super baddies it took Sisko to ask the Wormhole prophets to make them disappear. Just like that--done. They repeated the same nonsense at the end of the series where Odo simply liquid link with the leader and the war was over, neglecting the many times he linked with her and never mind manipulated her.

Jesus Christ! I mean, all Odo and Sisko needed to do was pull those two BS contrivances and it would've spared millions of Federation, and alien lives. As for Voyager and with DS9, and now Discovery, the audience will eat it up no matter how absurd it is.

You didn’t get the end of DS9. It’s not that Odo mind manipulated her, it’s that he demonstrated Federation values of Mercy, and saved her life. That’s what ended the war. It’s why she then ended the war by demonstrating something similar to mercy, and dignity in defeat. She finally ‘got’ the Federation, and the war ended, because she was the de facto ruler of the Dominion at this point.
The Prophets thing is not about the war, it’s about keeping Sisko and Bajor safe, so he can deal with the Pah Wraiths.

 

[Paradise City]

The Borg Queen hurts the Borg. The borg was that kind of impersonal, absolutely inhuman force before the BQ. The Borg Queen though turns the borg more to a conventional humanoid villain that we can relate to and thus defangs the borg somewhat.

Locutus didn't do that because he was the puppet of that inhuman, faceless force. Locutus, unlike, the BQ, wasn't a shot caller.

 

[jaime]

The Borg Queen hurts the Borg. The borg was that kind of impersonal, absolutely inhuman force before the BQ. The Borg Queen though turns the borg more to a conventional humanoid villain that we can relate to and thus defangs the borg somewhat.

Locutus didn't do that because he was the puppet of that inhuman, faceless force. Locutus, unlike, the BQ, wasn't a shot caller.

Even the queen would have worked, one off or occasionally. When she becomes Rita repulsa pacing in her lair, it changes much.

 

[JesterFace]

I think the Borg lost their interest and faceless scaryness (<-- what a word) when the Queen was introduced.

Before the Queen the Borg was a faceless enemy that wouldn't negotiate, they just say what they want and that's it.
Then the Queen appeared and she gave the Borg a personality of some kind... and that ruined the whole concept of a hive mind.

 

[Lance Warren Baylis]

They'r fine up until basically Descent. Even I Borg explores them in an interesting way without blowing their potential completely out of the water.

The Descent two parter was in many ways TNG's descent (haha) into seasonal rot. It also introduced a lot of the worst things people later criticized the TNG movies for, including confused and inconsistent plotting and a myopic focus on Data over the other characters. (Data's an ok character but Descent feels a little too much like a love letter to Brent Spiner than a tribute to Data).

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Let's face it. The Borg were ruined in "The Neutral Zone". All those outposts being carried off made the Borg so OP!

 

[STEPhon IT]

You didn’t get the end of DS9. It’s not that Odo mind manipulated her, it’s that he demonstrated Federation values of Mercy, and saved her life. That’s what ended the war. It’s why she then ended the war by demonstrating something similar to mercy, and dignity in defeat. She finally ‘got’ the Federation, and the war ended, because she was the de facto ruler of the Dominion at this point.
The Prophets thing is not about the war, it’s about keeping Sisko and Bajor safe, so he can deal with the Pah Wraiths.

I got it, but I didn't like it because it's too convenient, DS9 used to be a series that was never convenient but when the train is running off the rails like that stupid war; the producers had to throw several "hail mary's" to get them out of a mess.

 

[STEPhon IT]

They'r fine up until basically Descent. Even I Borg explores them in an interesting way without blowing their potential completely out of the water.

The Descent two parter was in many ways TNG's descent (haha) into seasonal rot. It also introduced a lot of the worst things people later criticized the TNG movies for, including confused and inconsistent plotting and a myopic focus on Data over the other characters. (Data's an ok character but Descent feels a little too much like a love letter to Brent Spiner than a tribute to Data).

Who were the research people getting the data to conclude Data was a popular character on TNG? He worked well when he was exploring his path to becoming human; he was a student striving for a certain goal. Data should always be more goal oriented and Professor Data was the achievement.

The Borg were goal oriented as well, and their existence was a major threat through out the universe. I remember Voyager had a plot where the Borg was creating Transwarp hubs to go anywhere in the galaxy, but wouldn't the idea been better if they were attempting to assimilate... other galaxies? Their mission statement is to add biological and technological distinctiveness to their own. I can't see another scary thought of that.

 

[jaime]

I got it, but I didn't like it because it's too convenient, DS9 used to be a series that was never convenient but when the train is running off the rails like that stupid war; the producers had to throw several "hail mary's" to get them out of a mess.

It was its final year...and the Dominion were losing the war. They would have caused a ton of casualties in their salt the Earth approach, particularly on Cardassian, but...the war was lost. Instead of going for a Nuke, and instead of the female changeling shooting herself in her bunker, DS9 used Federation ideals, mercy, to bring the end of the war. If, as a viewer, you wanted a total military victory, then yes, it would be disappointing...but it also wouldn’t have been in keeping with Trek or DS9. The separate but intertwined story...Bajor, the Federation, and Ben Sisko as the Emissary to the prophets, ended in a way absolutely cogent with his story throughout the seasons...except again, some viewers don’t like some of that story as it went along, particularly in the sixth and seventh seasons (Dukat fans, people who dislike the term Prophets, people who find the complex issue of Bens parentage too uncomfortable. All of which I understand to greater or lesser degrees.) maybe it’s a bit of a rush, but it was not going to go to an eighth or more seasons even if we really wanted it to.

 

[Lance Warren Baylis]

Who were the research people getting the data to conclude Data was a popular character on TNG? He worked well when he was exploring his path to becoming human; he was a student striving for a certain goal. Data should always be more goal oriented and Professor Data was the achievement.

So true. To me, a key thing that "All Good Things..." does so well is to invite viewers to compare Data's growth, but in a subtle way:

- S1 Data being unable to understand O'Brien's comment about burning the midnight oil/taking the phrase literally.
- S7 Data making a comparison between Q and Picard being like a master and his beloved pet (proving Data finally 'gets' the concept)

- Future Data saying Jezebel "makes me laugh" (ie, he now fully understands and appreciates her irony)

He was a popular character, but I also think he worked better as a B Plot in episodes strangely enough. Focus an episode around him and it could either be really good or really bad.

 

[Marynator]

To me, the scariest thing about the Borg is that we easily could become them. I mean they may be humanity's future. We might willingly give up our souls in the pursuit of efficiency and perceived perfection. I always thought they were much scarier as an existential threat rather than a physical one.

 

[Lance Warren Baylis]

To me, the scariest thing about the Borg is that we easily could become them. I mean they may be humanity's future. We might willingly give up our souls in the pursuit of efficiency and perceived perfection. I always thought they were much scarier as an existential threat rather than a physical one.

One might say the concept was almost like a mirror of the Federation... but instead of gaining knowledge through other races joining and adding their cultural differences to the melting pot, the Borg assimilate the knowledge into the collective by force.

 

[Gary7]

To me, the scariest thing about the Borg is that we easily could become them. I mean they may be humanity's future. We might willingly give up our souls in the pursuit of efficiency and perceived perfection. I always thought they were much scarier as an existential threat rather than a physical one.

I disagree... because culturally we really embrace individuality. Most of the Borg's assimilated drones did prior to being reprogrammed. I think most people would actively resist being willingly brainwashed into becoming drones.

Where I think our future has more plausibility is in an AI form of government. Clearly we're struggling severely with achieving good, balanced, objective government. Human beings are still too primal in their selfishness and greed. It's too difficult to resist. Unless we find a way to make some serious social evolution in the coming years, I think we may end up at a point where the logical choice is to utilize AI for decision-making. How extensive that will be, is anybody's guess. Because it will all be a matter of tolerance. That will change over time. Who knows how the average person will be viewing this concept 50+ years from now.