No, you said, "food, oxygen and water are useful to the Klingons, but Starfleet does not glass entire planets just to keep the enemy from using them." If Geneva Conventions still exist in Star Trek, then that would explain why Starfleet does not glass entire planets. The Shenzhou, however, was part of an armed force with "military-grade" technology, part of which happens to be a critical component in the Klingon flagship's warp propulsion system. Considering the part you quoted, what Convention/Protocol [and Article] specifically are you referring to or are you just making things up? Otherwise, it's not a matter of deliberately sabotaging the enemy crew's survival but a matter of preventing or slowing down the repairs of their flagship with perfect cloak and devastating firepower, which was enough to destroy the surface of a class M planet. Leaving free technology behind could theoretically speed up the enemy's repairs in war time. [If some convention or protocol played a role here, then the controlling power's fleet might have been able to capture or retrieve the Sarcophagus sooner. Unless, there was something else involved.] Does this include the Assault Phaser? There were several other facts established about phasers in general, but which might only relate to this model: a stun beam at close range to the skull can kill; phasers set on ‘wapourise,’ as Chekov calls it, set off internal sensors. . . . From the debate so far, it sounds like the strategic goal would be to prevent or slow down the enemy flagship's repairs in time of war, so it can't rejoin the fleet, or rejoin it as fast, to help turn the tide of war. Additionally, why was the Sarcophagus left stranded for six months without attention from either side? It was the Klingon flagship with perfect cloak and devastating firepower, in combination with its symbolic meaning. If Starfleet initially had to retreat, then that gives motivation to the Klingon fleet to check on their flagship much sooner. And if the issue is that it's the Federation territory, then that gives motivation to Starfleet to capture the vessel and retrieve the Shenzhou while at it. Perhaps there is something else to consider.
The best villains are the ones who consider themselves the hero in their own story. This has been asked and answered several times in this thread. The Sarcophagus ship was T'Kumva's flagship, not all the Klingon Empire and Kol did not consider it to be of strategic value until later. Starfleet likely did not think they had the manpower to contest a system that the Klingons essentially beat them in.
I made an error. Saru can't be an antihero, because he's a cowardly lion. Lorca might not be an antihero either, he might be a straight up villain. Funny aside: when Lorca was trying to convince Burnham to work for him, he basically called her an antihero.
That would actually make Saru an anti-hero in the classical sense, wouldn't it? As for Lorca, we should maybe have a betting pool on that. (I think I voted that he'll go full Ron Tracy upthread.) It's also possible that the hero and villain concepts just won't map very well onto him.
Lorca isn't a villain. He's been making his way back toward his humanity since we met him. That doesn't seem to be his arc right now.
I dunno. Maybe only a single main protagonist can be an antihero. When I think of antihero, I think of Al Pacino. And he's not very heroic in those roles(most famously Godfather and Scarface), but you root for him. I don't root for Lorca, even when he's in trouble...I..just..watch. Ray Liotta in Goodfellas is a great example of an antihero. Everything he does is despicable or reprehensible, but his actions are glorified, and we root for him, and even want to be him. Garak is a good Trek antihero, and while I don't really root for him, I really like him.
I'd root for Lorca every single time before I'd root for any of those people. All a matter of tastes.
It was. The dilithium processor is literally "the doodad that holds the dilithium crystal." It's the same thing they stuck Elaan's necklace into in "Elaan of Troyus." Left to the elements with no maintenance or upkeep, the dilithium crystals had broken down and wasted away, leaving a residue on the doodad that was, if mishandled, potentially explosive. Yes. Not because the reactor was powered up, but because dilithium can evidently explode when exposed to electrical current. Which kind of makes sense, considering it was naturally occurring dilithium in combination with a strong magnetic field and tectonic activity that was literally destroying Sarjenka's planet. It's interesting that the Klingons didn't even need Shenzhou's dilithium, just the doodad that holds it in the reaction chamber. Because you do not seem to have even a basic knowledge about what actually HAPPENED in this episode, in addition to the fact that you keep calling it a "power core."
First of all, the Geneva Conventions would explain why Starfleet does not destroy INHABITED planets. Asteroids, moons and comets where resources could be harvested would be fair game. But they are not in the habit of doing this either. They HAVE shown a propensity to attack strategic targets of opportunity that the enemy needed for survival, denying them SPECIFIC resources they couldn't get otherwise. They blew up the Jem'hadar's ketrecel white storage facility, for example, and will sometimes take steps to interrupt their enemy's dilithium or fuel supplies. They would probably destroy entire worlds if they thought they could disrupt the Klingons' dilithium supply chain (and arguably DID, depending on how you interpret the destruction of Praxis between the prime and Kelvin universes). But there was nothing like that on the Shenzhou; the Klingons didn't even go there looking for dilithium, just the little box that holds the crystals in place. The first thing Kirk says when they've been discovered by Sybok's people is "phasers on stun!" so evidently, yes. And if they had known where the enemy's flagship actually WAS, they probably would have done exactly that. But we're talking about the Ship of the Dead, a vessel that the entire Klingon military quite literally abandoned for six months and didn't bother to come back for until somebody decided to give the cloaking device another try. If Starfleet had any inkling whatsoever that the ship of the dead was that valuable, they would have destroyed IT, not the Shenzhou. Because it wasn't a military vessel. Hell, it was barely even a combatant; apart from firing the initial salvo, the ship barely moved during the entire action and let the REST of the fleet do most of the work. I seriously doubt it would even have been a match for the Shenzhou in a straight up fight. No it was not. It didn't become the "flagship" of anything at all until Kol stole it, and then only for symbolic purposes. There's nothing to consider except for the fact that the Ship of the Dead is NOT their flagship and its strategic value is miniscule AT BEST. If Kol hadn't returned to salvage the cloaking device, no one ever would have, and even if they'd made repairs and flown back to Kronos they would have spent the rest of the war cruising around trying and mostly failing to get the other great houses to take them seriously and then making excellent use of that cloaking device whenever they crossed paths with Starfleet. Kol is single handedly the reason why the cloaking device wound up being used as a strategic weapon. If he hadn't realized its potential, the Klingons would still be using it as a "oh shit" defense system for feckless cultists. ETA - from the actual episode: KOL: <Beams aboarD> VOQ: Kol, what is the reason for your welcome visit? KOL: The last time I was hear, on the eve of the war, I hurled disrespect. Now i come with humility. VOQ: T'Kuvma teaches that in a united Klingon empire, no one kneels but our foe. KOL: Wise words. But words don't win wars. Your house's ship has what no one else has. Cloaking technology that can crush Starfleet. We need you back in the fight. VOQ: We have scavenged the dead vessels floating around us in the grave yard left by our battle with Starfleet. Six months after that fight, we are almost operational again. But we still lack a dilithium processor. We are almost out of food too. But as T'Kuvma taught us, what belongs to house T'Kuvma belongs to house Kol. KOL: May the words of your messiah, our messiah, also sustain us. Remain Klingon! ALL: Remain Klingon!Seems evident that Voq didn't even EXPECT to be rescued. Kol's arrival was a pleasant surprise, and he doesn't even bother asking him for a dilithium processor OR for provisions. Doing so would probably be considered a sign of weakness and/or dishonorable, hence Voq actually offers his aid to Kol as if he is in any reason to be offering help in the first place. OTOH, everything Kol tells Voq when he arrives is basically bullshit. His real intentions are revealed later, when he points out that as soon as the war is over the Empire will fragment again. He doesn't really need the cloaking device to defeat Starfleet (or at least, he doesn't think he does, or doesn't care). He needs the cloaking device as part of a gimmick to get the other houses to fall in line behind him. Voq, Son of None, isn't going to pick up where T'Kuvma left off, and Kol figures he's going to fill the power vacuum and do it himself. More to the point: for some reason, Shenzhou is the only ship in the entire debris field with a dilithium processor, apparently because there are no birds of prey within range of their EVA suits. Even the other abandoned Federation ships don't seem to have one, nor do the Klingon cruisers in the debris field. This leads me to wonder if maybe the Klingons need a SPECIFIC type of dilithium processor that is actually compatible with their own technology. It could easily be that Shenzhou is only valuable because it's old, while newer vessels like the Shepard or the T'plana'hath would be non-starters. That might explain why Kol didn't offer to give him a spare part. "Dilithium processors? They still make those?"
It's not clear that anybody does this. Class M planets may be too valuable to destroy. See, for instance, the TWOK debate over the Genesis device; the objection to it, not disputed, was that it would make destroying planets practical.
Destroying planets has always been PRACTICAL. The Xindi apparently did this by accident to their own world, and were about to do the same thing to Earth. The guys from "Chosen Realm" managed to do it too, as did the people from "friendship 7." It's not hard to destroy a planet or at least fuck it up to the point that nobody would ever be able to use it again. Genesis turned something that was merely possible until something that was also profitable. It would give Starfleet the ability to slag entire planets and simply replace them with Federation colonists. They could EASILY have used it to wipe out the entire Klingon race if they really wanted to, which is probably what got Kruge's panties in a bunch.
Right. I meant "practical" in the sense of slagging planets being a workable long-term strategy, not in the sense of being feasible. It's always been feasible -- hell, any race with FTL can just accelerate a large rock to lightspeed and blow up anything.
Lorca is not following the path of redemption at all. The motivation that produces his behaviour is not mistake or flaw it's *choice*. He is continuing to pursue the same choices and patterns. There seems to be a notion that if a character achieves results those results define their character. Absolute rubbish. Even if we put the Buran story behind us what do we know about Lorca from what we've seen? He's been called a war monger by a member of his crew. He will manipulate to get his own way - if that 'way' coincides with Starfleet or not, is irrelevant. He played the recording of the distress call of the Corvan 2 - to manipulate. He took on Michael and played on her weakness of wanting atonement to manipulate. He slept with Cornwell, pulled a phaser on her, begged, and even left her 'under the bus' to protect his own arse. Lorca likes being captain that is his reason for being. Manipulating Stamets into the jumps after manipulating Starfleet orders by stalling, it just goes on. Getting the results doesn't make Lorca admirable. He's a compelling train wreck. Runs like a coward to save his own skin. One more jump Stamets - oh and let me screw with cooridnates. 'Discovery' is where it is now because Lorca didn't want to go home, he's entirely full of himself
Exactly this. That the Sarcophagus ship was "T'Kuvma’s flagship" and not the "Klingon flagship" doesn’t answer the fact that it was left unscrutinized by both sides of the conflict for six whole months even though it had new and invaluable technology that could determine the outcome of the war. Starfleet even returned to retrieve Captain Georgiou’s damned telescope* and not only didn’t scuttle or self-destruct their own ships but didn’t care to examine the enemy ship with the new cloaking screen. Monumental stupidity. (* Unless some crewmember retrieved it while they were abandoning ship and hurrying to save their lives which is even more farfetched and silly. They had both the time and composure to pack the Captain’s telescope but somehow not enough time and lots of confusion & disorder so not to engage the ship’s self-destruct mechanism. )
Or, they expected to retrieve the Shenzhou and the captain's yeoman, or Saru read the Captain's will (a'la "The Tholian Web") and opted to take then and return it to her family. Then, when they returned home, it turns out that Starfleet wasn't in a position to go back to that system due to losses. Makes sense to me.