The age of the antihero

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Refuge, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No longer do we have as our protagonist characters, even the flawed, striving toward heroic behaviour. Lorca is a damaged man who chooses to do wrong, who uses rule breaking to dominate, and who continues to do so. Burnham is no better, the end justifies the means. Yet here we have it, we covet the qualities of the antihero because being good is apparently boring, being bad achieves results and is compelling.

    You have to admire writers who have been able to create complexity and develop long running characters that were predominately admirable because they are at least striving to do 'right'. Is it easier to write the antihero?
     
  2. The Mighty Monkey of Mim

    The Mighty Monkey of Mim Commodore Commodore

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    I fail to see how Burnham does not fit this description. Have you still not re-watched any of the episodes?

    -MMoM:D
     
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  3. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Antiheroes are, IMHO, overrated.

    Personally, I prefer to ignore the concept. Either you're a hero or you're not. Good or evil. Black or white. PICK ONE.

    Shit or get off the pot, as it were.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  4. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    Huh? Hasn't Burnham been pretty much on the straight and narrow since coming to Discovery? Not sure she counts as an "anti-hero". One misstep does't make you an instant anti-hero.

    The anti-hero has been with us for decades. I think the 1970 was when we saw the rise of the anti-hero, especially in film. The Corleones in the Godfather film and Harry Callahan in the Dirty Harry films come to mind. even prior to that there were "anti-heroes". America has always had a fascination with them. Often elevating outright criminals to heroic status: Billy the Kid, Jesse James and even Al Capone. Other societies/countries have done the same such as with England and Robin Hood.
     
  5. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Commodore Commodore

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    Lorca's not the main character so they can do all kinds of crazy things with him. It's Burnham's journey we're supposed to follow and sympathize with.

    I wouldn't be surprised if we see several captains over the course of Discovery.
     
  6. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I would be rather surprised (to say the least) if Lorca survives this season.
     
  7. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Burnham is a criminal.
     
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  8. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    Yes and?
     
  9. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Duly convicted and sentenced. Currently serving her time on the Discovery.
     
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  10. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sentenced to life imprisonment and not doing that time on Discovery at all.
     
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    And this has what to do with being an "Anti-hero"?

    Last I heard she was still convicted of mutiny and can't just go home to Vulcan and do what ever she wants. She may not be in a prison, but she's still a prisoner and expects to return to an actual prison one her job on Discovery is over.
     
  12. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think it's got to be harder to write anti heros. You're writing a character who engages in morally questionable practices while also doing some good. It's not a matter of making that character "likable" it's writing the character so that he/she/it remains interesting to the audience.

    I was fascinated for years with Tony Soprano, one of the great anti-heros of American TV drama. The character was written as a flawed family man who was trying to do the best he could for his family while also being the head monster in a "family" of monsters. Tony was compelling. This had to do with the way the character was written and James Gandolfini's masterful portrayal of the character.

    I loved Georgiou, (how could you not?), but I didn't find her especially fascinating or compelling. Burnham, Lorca, and maybe even L'Rell, DSC's "bad boys" and "bad girls", keep me on the edge of my seat wondering among other things, what will they do or say next.

    I do, however, agree with Nerys that Burnham as an anti hero is arguable.
     
  13. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Most people don't want to aspire to let alone admire someone who is a convicted criminal. Something about their behaviour and choices being questionable. Hardly heroic, attacking your Captain, taking over the ship, trying to fire on the enemy first... killing the Klingon leader etc. etc.
     
  14. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do you think Discovery has too many anti-heroes? It's like the writers are going for shock value. That is in part my point the audience seem to get a kick out of those who do wrong things. It's as much about interest value as likeability. To write a 'good' guy as interesting is, in my opinion, not as easy as having a character that is free to do anything without consequence or restriction. Write someone as breaking the law but guarantee that they don't do time because hey, seeing them sitting in a cell is not good TV. So we have these ridiculous scenarios that go for the edge or danger of a situation but without ever really expecting the character to be an actual red shirt. No way. There is never a doubt in the watchers mind that Lorca or Burnham are not going to be spared by the writer's pen.
     
  15. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    I think you underestimate the appeal of a redemption story has to most people. In fact an entire religion is built around the idea, a religion who's founder was a convicted criminal.

    Thing is, everyone is capable of being a hero, a role model and admirable through acts that transcend their past and their origins. Burnham's crimes were the beginning of her journey, not the entirety of it. And even those don't make her an anti-hero.
     
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  16. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk The Walrus Premium Member

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    Lorca's the only one.
     
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  17. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Commodore

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    I don't think Burnham counts as a anti-hero because they are way to protective of the character. They want her to be flawed but not to flawed that she can't also be a role model. She did start a war but her heart was in the right place because she felt she was saving everyone.

    Lorca on the otherhand is kind of a mystery. Did he abandon his first crew just to save his neck? Did he set up the Admiral to be captured? Does he torture people or things in his man cave? Does he want peace or just a chance to carryout revenge on the Klingons and when he talks about someday getting back to exploring does he really believe that or is that what he wants to believe but can't on the inside because he is still dealing with trauma and a need for revenge. He is more of the anti-hero type but since he isn't the series lead i'm not sure if that counts.

    Jason
     
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  18. O_Kav

    O_Kav Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Admiral Admiral

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    That's untrue. Lorca had the authority to transfer Burnham to Discovery, where she is currently serving as a specialist under conditions that are something like a cross between work release and confinement to a sharashka.
     
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  20. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Every little girl dreams of one day growing up, befriending her mentor and then rendering her unconscious in an act of mutiny to fire first. Who wouldn't want to be a criminal? Or to be a Captain of a ship one day and kill your entire crew. These are not heroes.