The age of the antihero

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Refuge, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Captain of the USS Averof

    Captain of the USS Averof Commodore Commodore

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    The Klingons didn’t go back to that system either which makes zero sense to me.

    So, not a single search & rescue, "scavenging", ship retrieval or intelligence gathering operation in the Binary Stars battlefield by both sides for six months... :vulcan:
     
  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Klingons had no reason to because that was a victory for them.

    Starfleet didn't have the power to risk Klingon aggression.
     
  3. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Actually, Starfleet sent out a recovery fleet with tow-ships(tugboats?) being escorted by 3 or 4 starships. As they neared the Binary system, an emergency came up, and they were forced to put the recovery on hold. 2 months later, Starfleet intelligence expressed interest in the cloaking ship. A few unnamed vessels were sent out, but never heard from again.

    As for the Klingons, they left chanting "New Kahless" or something. In case you guys didn't notice, they did come back, saw what happened to their Divine brother, and drive home disillusioned. They didn't know the cloak existed.

    Jeepers, I think its time for some of "y'all" to have a rewatch...

    Edit: lol. that was "rewatch" not rematch.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  4. ralfy

    ralfy Commander Red Shirt

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    Given that, how does your "fix" work?
     
  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not sure how it is a fix, so much as my way of engaging the material and the characters as people, flaws and all, who will make bad decisions for the sake of their personal goals.
     
  6. ralfy

    ralfy Commander Red Shirt

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    So, it was functional then! What they had to do was unplug and remove it.

    How can I lack that when you just confirmed my argument above?

    I also use the term only because it was mentioned in one review, but we mean the same thing.
     
  7. ralfy

    ralfy Commander Red Shirt

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    "Fixed it for you."
     
  8. Captain of the USS Averof

    Captain of the USS Averof Commodore Commodore

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    As you’ve pointed out, the Ship of the Dead was "T'Kuvma’s flagship", not the Klingon flagship. The rest of the Klingons didn’t have cloaking technology. And it only took Kol six months to figure that out, never mind the rest of the Klingons! Impressive!

    And all it would have taken was a couple of throwaway lines in the script like that and (part of the) problem solved, at least on the Federation’s side. Lazy writing.
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It was a joke...I do that.

    As for "fix" it simply means that I don't approach all character motivation with logic. I try to get inside their head and understand their motive, how they would behave with given information, etc. Versus tearing apart their decisions like a review board because the audience has more information that the characters often do.

    Kol didn't consider it a strategic advantage.

    I figured it out and I'm not even a writer :shrug:
     
  10. Megapolis

    Megapolis Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    See! The Shenzhou's dilithium processing unit was a specific resource that the Sarcophagus couldn't get otherwise for six months.

    I see.

    Assault Phaser:

    Another unusual setting: a beam that cuts into the flesh it hits without cauterization, one of the few times we’ve seen what these weapons might actually do – the novelization of ST6 calls them ‘burning phasers’ and says they’re outlawed.​

    "The Vulcan Hello":

    <the Sarcophagus decloaks>
    CREWMEMBER (Narwani): Impossible.
    [. . .]
    GEORGIOU: The Klingon flagship has a stealth mode. It's some kind of cloaking screen, unlike anything we've ever seen, Admiral.​

    You were saying? :cool:

    The direct hit from the Sarcophagus after the Shenzhou boosted power to its forward shields:

    [​IMG]

    <explosion on the bridge; Narwani falls out of her chair>
    GEORGIOU: Ops, damage report.
    <explosion at the Ops station; Connor falls out of his chair>
    GEORGIOU: Ensign Connor.
    <Connor is hurt on the floor>
    GANT: Transferring Ops to this station, Captain.
    GANT [damage report]: Direct hit. Hull breaches, decks 13 through 15. Emergency force fields in place, bulkheads holding.
    GANT: Secondary tactical offline.​

    It's been six months and Voq thought they were abandoned.

    VOQ: T'Kuvma, my lord, it has been six months since your ship was disabled and the war began. We are left behind, in disrepair. Your followers are hungry. Help me guide them to nourishment.​

    And while he doesn't ask Kol for repair parts and provisions directly, he does say, "But we still lack a dilithium processor. We are almost out of food too."

    He definitely felt he needed it against the Discovery:

    KOL: Cloak us at once.​

    Voq said, "But we still lack a dilithium processor." He didn't specify any further. And L'Rell said, "The Shenzhou is within range. It may have been abandoned, but it still has an intact dilithium-processing unit." It sounds more like they needed any intact dilithium processor.

    At least we confirmed something again. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  11. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    All the work in this argument is being done by the assumption that a destruct order was given or should have been given. Which is OK as rhetoric, but it doesn't work for anyone who doesn't share the assumption.

    Speaking of rhetoric, did you actually assume that someone went back to the ship for the telescope? Or is that just a talking point?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  12. AlanC9

    AlanC9 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Isn't this supposed to be a command breakdown on the Klingon side. Although "breakdown" isn't the right word since there isn't really a unified command to break down, which is precisely the problem with the Empire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  13. ralfy

    ralfy Commander Red Shirt

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    It's supposed to be a joke but your next paragraph shows otherwise.

    Also, isn't attempting to understand the motives of a character logical?

    Finally, I don't know what you're talking about. Are you referring to Lorca?
     
  14. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's because you got inside the characters' heads?? Is that how we're supposed to fill in all these holes?
     
  15. cultcross

    cultcross War is what happens when language fails Moderator

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    Scripts don't need to answer every little tiny thing. They have 50 minutes to tell a story and advance the plot, not fill in every little gap for nitpickers. Scripts which are full of unnecessary exposition like that represent 'lazy writing'.
     
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  16. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Exposition is not lazy writing. If an episode is very heavy on exposition, it can come off as cheesy, but it's not lazy.

    Lazy would be creating loose plots that require exposition, then saying "oh well."
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Character motivations are not always logical.

    And the fact that the decision to not scuttle the Shenzhou is subject to such intense ridicule within this thread...plot hole, lazy writing, etc.
    No one is supposed to do anything. That's how I choose to engage the material.

    YMMV and all that.
     
  18. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's very easy to assume that the destruct systems were off-line. If it could happen to the most advanced starship in the late 24th century (Enterprise-E, Star Trek Nemesis) it could easily happen to the outdated Shenzhou.

    It's also very easy to assume that characters are going to do things that don't make sense, particularly in times of crisis.

    It is, of course, much harder to accept either of these things when you've already made up your mind that this show is worthless shite, like some of the people you are engaged in a discussion with, because justifying their dislike is dependent upon the validity of arguments such as these you are seeing.
     
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  19. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It goes both ways.
    If there's a plot hole, a logical incongruity(and I'm not saying this is one), those who are not fond of the show criticize it, and might use it to criticize the show as a whole, or at least larger aspects of it.

    Those who are fond of the show will adamantly defend against such criticism, and the most sure defense is to argue that it's not actually a plot hole.

    Humans aren't very objective, nor are we honest, especially when emotions and loyalties are involved. And we can't really expect a more objective, impartial analysis of Star Trek on a Star Trek message board, made up of serious Trekkin fans(Even though each of us esteems ourselves logical and equitable).
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  20. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have to agree here. Even a brief reference in dialogue helps consistency AND continuity.