Sussman Responds to Cogley!

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by MikeSussman, May 9, 2003.

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  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Actually, he does, if only three seconds of thought is applied. Picard has no cause to believe unnamed Mechano-men from the 22nd century are related to his current Q-initiated dillema.
  2. Old Trek Guy

    Old Trek Guy Commodore Commodore

    Jun 9, 2001
    With all due respect Mr Sussman, the wreckage from First Contact was a good excuse to sneak in a Borg episode. Unfortunatly since I've seen enough Borg episodes, I decided to give this one a pass. I did think that the last few Enterprise episodes were better than most have been and I am looking forward to Bounty. But please I beg you, NO MORE BORG! Borg Ugh. :borg:
    PS. When are you guys gonna do a Q episode? :D
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Mike Sussman's script snippet describes what we do see in the episode. Click the vidcap link, below: The first four images are scenes showing the Habitat modules and Borg debris, before Starfleet arrive. Vidcap #5 shows the shuttlepod arrival; the camp is ravaged, and the Borg debris is gone...

    The Borg crash site. (7 vidcaps ~105kB)

    Here's what's actually said, during the Situation Room briefing...

    Archer: Earth tracking stations spotted the transport leaving orbit at warp 3.9 .

    Tucker: That's impossible. Those transports can't exceed 1.4 .

    Archer: I think it's safe to assume these aliens reconfigured the engines using technology from their own ship.

    ...later, after the Tarkalean encounter...

    T'Pol: I've located the transport on long-range sensors. They're traveling at warp 4.8 .

    You're correct. Mayweather told Matthew Ryan, "Even with a warp three engine you'd be able to cut a five-year cargo run down to six months."


    Captain Keene: My family's been on the Fortunate for three generations. Now I'm going to need at least a warp-three engine to stay in business.

    Archer: Maybe that's not so bad. At warp three, help's a lot closer than before. You won't have to go it alone.

    Quotable Star Trek
  4. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

    Apr 14, 2003
    Norfolk, VA

    You're dealing with Startrek fans. You have add an appendix :lol:

    (Just kidding)

    I would always assume they vaporize (I love that line in "I Borg,"

    "That's odd, the Borg usually vaporize their dead"
    "Sir, this one isn't dead"


    Everybody forgets that.

    Besides (If I remember the EMH's discription of Nanoprobes) they replace existing cells. Since radiation kills cells indiscriminantly (sp?) Phlox would loose a bunch of his cells (had it been further in the proccess, he wouldn't have enough cells left for the process).

    Just a scientific explanation for a Treknology

    I think you're right about reconnecting being the first priority. I can't remember where I heard that, but Borg don't like being disconnected


    You know about warp scales?

    Way to go on your research ;)

    (I'm kidding again)

    In other words,

    Just like a bunch of things (stardates, dilithium, etc) Polarized Hull is designed so one can stay within science, by using fiction. I tend to think it has something to do with what was said, though

    Thanks for the clarification.

    But Please don't bring in another Borg or Ferengi episode (or anything someone might consider similar)

    I hope the Delphic Expanse turns into something interesting

    But remember, some people want a war with my favorite race (The Romulans) :D

    Hope you have time to read this :borg:
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ALL RIGHT, TRexx! Comin' through with the screen shots. :cool:
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think I agree with that. I'm only hesitant because I've heard writers on other shows tell fans things that they later turned back on because they realized they'd left themselves an opening to do something else.

    I hadn't quite thought of it in those terms. Sussman's comments certainly hold weight; even I wouldn't argue that they don't and I can make pompous rantings with the best of 'em. :D

    Agreed. It isn't canon (yet) but it is far more powerful than speculation. Really, I don't think I addressed that well at all. I was never trying to say what the writer tells us doesn't matter.
    And that's completely valid. Never thought he was asking for forgiveness.

    I think it's great that he took the time to do that. I'm changing my tune and agreeing that it is okay to go with what Sussman's explanations are, with the condition that the writers still have the ability to use the openings provided by budget and time constraints to work in a plot later on. Again, I've seen writers do it before.

    So going completely with Sussman's explanation is probably the best bet (see how I've shifted my position? Why must I seriously consider other people's arguments? Stupid brain... :p) but it isn't set in stone yet.
  7. Raz

    Raz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jul 13, 2001
    Great stuff. Thanks. I'll believe it now :D

    Well.. err, at least I was fairly close on the initial speed ;) I did miss the bit about leaving Earth orbit at 3+. Er.. oops?

    There's still a question though, because "catching up" only works if they move faster AND you start behind them. Is the Sol system completely empty or something? Was there nothing in orbit that could have confronted them at all?
  8. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

    Apr 14, 2003
    Norfolk, VA

    I was afraid this would be true

    Although not canon, neither is speculation

    One can speculate that it is unlikely for them to not know about the Borg, one has to look at what is on screen

    They encountered the Borg in the 22nd Century, they didn't know they existed in the 24th

    That's what's canon :mad:
  9. zog

    zog Captain Captain

    Apr 23, 2003
    Well said, Sam.

    This is the ultimate in interactive TV, and I'm unabashedly praising Mr. Sussman for participating.

    [digression: One of the things that impressed me most about JMS (Babylon 5) was the added insights he provided on a public forum about the show. /end digression]

    When you consider that the more compelling arguments against "Regeneration" relate to the constraints of the premise [a one-shot, Borg episode on Enterprise], it's great to have some authorative plugs to the various nits and picks, so we can better assess the episode on its own merits.

    My thoughts on the episode after reading Mr. Sussman's post notched to B+ from a B (on the Trek/Enterprise scale, on a TV sci-fi scale I still rate it in the C range, the condensed version being that in retrospect it was a story that didn't seem to need telling). [Self-promo: my mini-review near top of p.11 in the Grading Thread independently echoed many other of Sam T. Cogley's points (if that's any endorsement ;) given that it lacks the charm and wit of Sam's evaluations) - and apologies to Mr. Sussman in advance for the harsh sounding "formulaic puke" in the summation, sometimes balancing the flatterers comes a tad too readily.]

    And since I'm already here brown-nosing, I'll add my compliments to Sam for another entertaining review, and my thanks.

    Keep it up Mike!

    [aside to Sam- and I'd give Mike's words almost the same weight as legislative intent, even if that gives him room to retro-think, I have no reason to not take his words at face value.]
  10. Raz

    Raz Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Jul 13, 2001
    Since i've been proven wrong, I should speak up.

    The destruction of the camp WAS on screen. I was mistaken. It's canon.

    I'm glad it actually made it on screen.
  11. Cyrus

    Cyrus Vice Admiral Admiral

    Feb 10, 2002
    Los Angeles
    It was chilling and it was a great episode. But I don't see how it made sense for the Borg, who have never used a spokesman before or since. Sorry, but Borg's actions don't always follow common sense.

    Your reply doesn't seem to be related to my comment. The poor quality is just your opinion and I strongly disagree (as far as Regeneration). Also disagree about the plot holes. As to credible explanation about Picard, it has been discussed in lots of threads in the last few days and quite a few people have come up with credible explanations (include a nice one by AlexR in the "Grade Regeneration" thread).
  12. rafterman1701

    rafterman1701 Commodore Commodore

    Mar 25, 2001
    I enjoyed the episode. Thanks for popping in here. I initially thought doing the episode was unnecessary, but I liked how it brought the Borg obsession with Earth full circle. I also liked how Cochrane was still a bit of a drunk and just couldn't stay quiet about what really happened. I just assumed it was an event that happened, all evidence was destroyed and in 200 years it was pretty much forgotten about. Until TNG. Thanks for an entertaining episode.
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ^It's amazing how many people liked the episode!

    It was bad people! Come on, you can admit it.
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Dude, I don't know you, but I do know that a) your comments in this thread have nothing to do with the subject of the thread, and are therefore not sanctioned, and b) that is a really offensive comment to make, regarding "special ed" class. Why are you even drawing such a comparison? Don't knock the kids in special ed, they try their hardest every day. But no one's as great as you are, huh? Your atrocious sense of propriety displayed in making such an uncouth comment like THAT one makes you look pretty "special" too, Dr. You ought to matriculate in the "I need my ass kicked" "special ed" class. If they need a prof, just let my know. I'll clear my calendar.

    Very entertaining review, as always, Sam. And very interesting reply, Sussman. I like the volley.

  15. mac

    mac Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 29, 2002

    Okay, It was bad. :lol:
    But hey, most here seemed to have liked it so good for them.
    Mr.Sussman thank you for your remarks, sorry for 10 year old bashers and gushers. I'm not the biggest fan of your show but I have hope for it. And I will continue to speak my feelings on the show; good eps and the bad ones no matter what else anyone may say or think.
    Hope you don't mind. ;)
  16. mac

    mac Vice Admiral Admiral

    Dec 29, 2002

    Make that a double.
    Dude I didn't like the ep. all that much but didn't you get taught something about respect. Bashing the show is one thing, but now 'special ed' students too? That's downright nasty. Maybe you need to get your sense of reality back.
  17. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

    Dec 26, 2002
    The episode was fun and did a lot to restore the borg to their creepy relentless nature the way hurley originally saw them.

    And it did at least come up with a reason why the borg were running around the neutral zone .

    A thought..
    one reason why these borg were less powerful and couldnt adapt as quickly is they are only as good as the power source they are tapped into.

    When they are drawing power from a cube or even in first contact when they probably were drawing power directly from the warp engines then they are far formidable then when they were here.

    They left because i dont believe they would have been able to assimilate a city.. with so few and so much of the tech destroyed.

    The big reason the cdc still has live smallpox is that they know that it exists eslewhere in labs around the globe and they need to do research on vacines ect..

    If they knew for sure it was totally gone elsewhere then they would probably destroy theirs..
    as it is there had been debates about destroying it anyways.

    Nasa has called off the active search for pieces of Columbia.
    If someone happens to find some thing they can contact nasa about it and arrangements can be made if they believe it is part of the shuttle.

    They had considered calling off the search earlier then they did but the loss of copter finally helped to make the decision.

    Records can be lost over time.. and especially evidence that probably is resricted to begin with.

    Back some time ago there was a huge fire in a building in st louis. It held a lot of military records including a lot of sevrvice histories of wwll vets.

    when my father applied for his disability some time after the fire i had to write to people he had served with to get verification of all the places he served and how he was originally injured in the war since his records were among those lost.
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    The dialog indicates that the Borg headed in NX-01's general direction. By the time the Situation Room briefing takes place, Starfleet data estimates the Borg to be within a half dozen light-years of Enterprise...

    Sato: Does Starfleet know where the vessel is now?

    Archer: Not exactly, but their heading puts them within a half dozen light-years of our current position. We've been ordered to find the ship.

    T'Pol: It shouldn't be difficult to isolate their warp signature.

    Archer: We'll start searching at these coordinates. Go to tactical alert. Lay in a course.

    Mayweather:Aye, sir.

    The Borg are encountered when NX-01 responds to a Tarkalean distress signal.

    The science vessel is authorized to be there, and to excavate debris. Why would Earth's regular defenses question its activities, until it does something suspicious -- like leave orbit at high (3.9) warp?

    The Star Trek Encyclopedia
  19. JohnM

    JohnM Admiral Admiral

    Mar 25, 2001
    Atlanta Georgia
    Records, technology, bodies, ect........ all can be covered up or "lost"

    SECTION 31!! :)

    Maybe Sussman can write the first Section 31 episode showing how they can cover up the TCW, any future technology, the Borg, ect.....
  20. dogsowar

    dogsowar Commodore Commodore

    Jun 5, 2001
    Republican held USA
    Not quite...
    When I saw the episode I thought it looked like the Borg took the wreckage with them, but it wasn't very clear. A simple line from Forester "Where's all the damn wreckage they were talking about?" would have settled that simply.
    ( besides they couldn't possible get every last bit down to the last nanoprobe )
    Also a TV show shouldn't need the writer to have to come back and EXPLAIN why it wworked, you're admitting you have a script problem. All the viewers get is what they see. There was some fluff that could've been dumped to get these important scenes on-screen, there's a diference between a story that makes you think ( Cogenitor actually did this ) and one that's unintelligable.
    Last comes judgement, should we do this script? In the case of Regeneration the answer is no, it was only done as a desperate ratings grab... wich failed thankfully.

    Now please play nicely on the BBS children. ;)

    :borg: :evil: :mad:
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