Sussman Responds to Cogley!

[Guest]

Posted by Yminale:
Finally Mr. Sussman does not have a credible explanation for why Picard was clueless when he first met the Borg.

Actually, he does, if only three seconds of thought is applied. Picard has no cause to believe unnamed Mechano-men from the 22nd century are related to his current Q-initiated dillema.

 

[Old Trek Guy]

With all due respect Mr Sussman, the wreckage from First Contact was a good excuse to sneak in a Borg episode. Unfortunatly since I've seen enough Borg episodes, I decided to give this one a pass. I did think that the last few Enterprise episodes were better than most have been and I am looking forward to Bounty. But please I beg you, NO MORE BORG! Borg Ugh.
PS. When are you guys gonna do a Q episode?

 

[Guest]

Posted by MikeSussman :
The Borg removed all useful technology from the crash site. This was the scene as written in the final draft script:
EXT. GLACIAL TERRAIN - CRASH SITE - DAY (OPTICAL)
A Starfleet SHUTTLE is landing near the three Habitat Modules. The modules have been ravaged. The excavation site is gone; the Borg debris has been taken away. The transport ship is nowhere to be seen.

Posted by Raz :
Without being told so by Mr. Sussman, what motivates me in any way to believe the Borg cleaned up the wreckage? Nothing. In fact, nobody really brought up the possibility until Mr. Sussman asserted it here in this thread... afaik..

Mike Sussman's script snippet describes what we do see in the episode. Click the vidcap link, below: The first four images are scenes showing the Habitat modules and Borg debris, before Starfleet arrive. Vidcap #5 shows the shuttlepod arrival; the camp is ravaged, and the Borg debris is gone...

The Borg crash site. (7 vidcaps ~105kB)

Posted by Raz :
Actually, I distinctly remember Trip saying the ship was only capable of warp 1.5.

They upgraded the engines TWICE. Once from 1.5 to 3 something, and then again to 4.8.
...

It's nice that you say the Borg ship left Earth doing 3.8, but we really don't know that.

Here's what's actually said, during the Situation Room briefing...

Archer: Earth tracking stations spotted the transport leaving orbit at warp 3.9 .

Tucker: That's impossible. Those transports can't exceed 1.4 .

Archer: I think it's safe to assume these aliens reconfigured the engines using technology from their own ship.

...later, after the Tarkalean encounter...

T'Pol: I've located the transport on long-range sensors. They're traveling at warp 4.8 .

Posted by CountLestat :
Warp 2?????

Could someone tell but have I dreamt the episode 'Fortunate Son' where it was mentioned that a cargo ship with a warp 2 engine could upgrade to a Warp 3 Engine???? Did I dream this????

You're correct. Mayweather told Matthew Ryan, "Even with a warp three engine you'd be able to cut a five-year cargo run down to six months."

...later...

Captain Keene: My family's been on the Fortunate for three generations. Now I'm going to need at least a warp-three engine to stay in business.

Archer: Maybe that's not so bad. At warp three, help's a lot closer than before. You won't have to go it alone.


--------------
Quotable Star Trek

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Posted by MikeSussman:
A very entertaining review, Sam. A couple of clarifications I'd like to make:

Starfleet didn't catch their name, but what did they catch? Huge chunks of the Borg sphere.

The Borg removed all useful technology from the crash site. This was the scene as written in the final draft script:

EXT. GLACIAL TERRAIN - CRASH SITE - DAY (OPTICAL)
A Starfleet SHUTTLE is landing near the three Habitat Modules. The modules have been ravaged. The excavation site is gone; the Borg debris has been taken away. The transport ship is nowhere to be seen.

Need more? Two whole dead Borg bodies left behind on the NX-01.

In an earlier draft, we saw the dead drones dematerialize/disintegrate, as they often did in TNG. This shot was cut for pacing and budget concerns. Maybe we should've kept it for clarity's sake.

You're dealing with Startrek fans. You have add an appendix

(Just kidding)

I would always assume they vaporize (I love that line in "I Borg,"

"That's odd, the Borg usually vaporize their dead"
"Sir, this one isn't dead"

A way to defeat the nanoprobes! Is that all? The nanoprobes themselves! (Phlox deactivated them, but did not destroy them.)

Phlox's technique may only be effective in the initial stage of assimilation, which was prolonged because of his physiology. In any case, it seemed to us that defeating Borg nanoprobes (and restoring an assimilated person) never seemed to be much of a problem in the TNG era, as Picard, Janeway, Torres and Tuvok were restored without too much trouble.

Everybody forgets that.

Besides (If I remember the EMH's discription of Nanoprobes) they replace existing cells. Since radiation kills cells indiscriminantly (sp?) Phlox would loose a bunch of his cells (had it been further in the proccess, he wouldn't have enough cells left for the process).

Just a scientific explanation for a Treknology

No more? Whatever chunks of the Borgified artic transport that they could salvage. (Feel free to argue that Starfleet wouldn't salvage them if you're willing to agree that they're morons.) Anything else? Two floating Borgified Tarkaleans. (See above. Same reasons.)

After their recent experience, it would be pretty clear to Archer and Starfleet that the alien technology was incredibly dangerous. It's my belief that Starfleet would've destroyed any remaining technology and/or corpses.

And why the desperate urgency to communicate with the Borg homeworld? What is it about Earth that is so important to the Borg?

I have it on good authority that a Drone's first task, when separated from the Collective, is to reestablish that connection. As for the "urgency" of their final communication... we don't know what else the Drones actually said in their message. For all we know, they may have only been reporting their position.

I think you're right about reconnecting being the first priority. I can't remember where I heard that, but Borg don't like being disconnected

It was actually pretty ballsy of Archer to blow those poor bastards into space. But then he turns right around and tells T'Pol that he's going to bend over backwards to save the nine life-forms (or is it twenty-nine lifeforms? T'Pol keeps changing the number) on the arctic shuttle.

When Enterprise first encountered the Borgified transport, Archer asked T'Pol how many HUMAN bio-signs were on board: she reported there were nine. Later, she made it clear there were twenty-nine TOTAL bio-signs on the transport (the humans plus the Tarkaleans, plus any other poor souls the Borg had run across).

Trip shows Archer the schematic of the enhanced artic shuttle, pointing out the new weapons nodes. Seconds later, Archer worriedly tells Trip, Let's hope they didn't have time to upgrade their weapons!?

Trip was briefing Archer on the scans they took of the Transport during their first firefight. These scans were already out-of-date as the Borg were continuing to upgrade their ship with technology from the Tarkalean vessel. Maybe the line would've been clearer if Archer had said: "Let's hope they didn't have time to upgrade their weapons... since we last saw them."

And why was the Enterprise so close to Earth? Despite Reed's observation that, "We're a long way from the Artic," Trip announces that the Borg on the arctic shuttle have doubled their maximum Warp speed in "less than twelve hours."

Trip was referring to the twelve hours since Enterprise's first encounter with the Borg, not the time since the Borg had left Earth. We kept Enterprise's position deliberately vague. We also never said how long it had been since the transport left Earth. Conceivably, the events in the Arctic could've been weeks or months earlier.

As for the "doubling" of their speed: the Borg left Earth orbit at warp 3.9 (59c on the TOS scale). When they carved up the Tarkalean ship, they took a number of engine components and enhanced their warp drive again, allowing them to reach warp 4.8 (111c). Okay, it's not exactly double... Trip rounded up.

You know about warp scales?

Way to go on your research

(I'm kidding again)

And what's up with Reed's "Hull plating is down 12%"? How is the hull plating down?

Reed was referring to the hull plating polarization, not the physical hull plates.

In other words,

Just like a bunch of things (stardates, dilithium, etc) Polarized Hull is designed so one can stay within science, by using fiction. I tend to think it has something to do with what was said, though

It was kind of the four remaining (living) Borg on NX-01 to conveniently beam themselves back to the arctic shuttle just in time for it to explode. Why wouldn't the Borg stay and assimilate the Enterprise, instead?

In "Q, Who," when their ship was damaged, the Drones entered their alcoves to use their combined abilities to repair their ship. This is why the Drones were beamed back to the Transport.

And does Starfleet have no other ships in the fleet?

Enterprise is the only ship in Starfleet capable of intercepting a vessel at warp 3.9 or higher; the rest of the fleet is zipping along at a leisurely warp two.

Since when are Vulcan sandworms kept in the galley?!? What recipe is that for?)

We're going to reveal in a future show that T'Pol enjoys slurping down a juicy sandworm every now and again; a vegetarian has to get her protein from somewhere.

Thanks for the clarification.

But Please don't bring in another Borg or Ferengi episode (or anything someone might consider similar)

I hope the Delphic Expanse turns into something interesting

But remember, some people want a war with my favorite race (The Romulans)

Hope you have time to read this

 

[Guest]

ALL RIGHT, TRexx! Comin' through with the screen shots.

 

[Guest]

Posted by Samuel T. Cogley:
I would actually give Mike Sussman's explanation even more weight than that.<snip>

I think I agree with that. I'm only hesitant because I've heard writers on other shows tell fans things that they later turned back on because they realized they'd left themselves an opening to do something else.

I'd analogize it to statutory interpretation in the law. When attempting to interpret what a particular statute means in any given circumstance, especially when it falls silent on a certain point, courts look to the legislative intent and legislative history behind the statute.

I hadn't quite thought of it in those terms. Sussman's comments certainly hold weight; even I wouldn't argue that they don't and I can make pompous rantings with the best of 'em.

Until we see otherwise, Mike's explanations are incredibly relevant.

Agreed. It isn't canon (yet) but it is far more powerful than speculation. Really, I don't think I addressed that well at all. I was never trying to say what the writer tells us doesn't matter.

Mike's not making an apology, or begging forgiveness from the fans. He's simply letting us know what was running through his mind, what was in earlier drafts of the script, what never got filmed, and what was filmed but cut.

And that's completely valid. Never thought he was asking for forgiveness.

Mike doesn't seem to be expecting us to buy his explanations as canon. He's just letting us know what would've (or could've) been if budgetary or time constraints weren't an issue.

I think it's great that he took the time to do that. I'm changing my tune and agreeing that it is okay to go with what Sussman's explanations are, with the condition that the writers still have the ability to use the openings provided by budget and time constraints to work in a plot later on. Again, I've seen writers do it before.

So going completely with Sussman's explanation is probably the best bet (see how I've shifted my position? Why must I seriously consider other people's arguments? Stupid brain... ) but it isn't set in stone yet.

 

[Raz]

Posted by TRexx:
Mike Sussman's script snippet describes what we do see in the episode. Click the vidcap link, below: The first four images are scenes showing the Habitat modules and Borg debris, before Starfleet arrive. Vidcap #5 shows the shuttlepod arrival; the camp is ravaged, and the Borg debris is gone...

The Borg crash site. (7 vidcaps ~105kB)

Great stuff. Thanks. I'll believe it now

Posted by Raz :
Actually, I distinctly remember Trip saying the ship was only capable of warp 1.5.

They upgraded the engines TWICE. Once from 1.5 to 3 something, and then again to 4.8.
...

It's nice that you say the Borg ship left Earth doing 3.8, but we really don't know that.

Here's what's actually said, during the Situation Room briefing...

Archer: Earth tracking stations spotted the transport leaving orbit at warp 3.9 .

Tucker: That's impossible. Those transports can't exceed 1.4 .

Archer: I think it's safe to assume these aliens reconfigured the engines using technology from their own ship.

...later, after the Tarkalean encounter...

T'Pol: I've located the transport on long-range sensors. They're traveling at warp 4.8 .

Well.. err, at least I was fairly close on the initial speed I did miss the bit about leaving Earth orbit at 3+. Er.. oops?

There's still a question though, because "catching up" only works if they move faster AND you start behind them. Is the Sol system completely empty or something? Was there nothing in orbit that could have confronted them at all?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Posted by Raz:
In stark contrast to the rest of the fawning:

Posted by MikeSussman:
A very entertaining review, Sam. A couple of clarifications I'd like to make:

Starfleet didn't catch their name, but what did they catch? Huge chunks of the Borg sphere.

The Borg removed all useful technology from the crash site. This was the scene as written in the final draft script:

EXT. GLACIAL TERRAIN - CRASH SITE - DAY (OPTICAL)
A Starfleet SHUTTLE is landing near the three Habitat Modules. The modules have been ravaged. The excavation site is gone; the Borg debris has been taken away. The transport ship is nowhere to be seen.

It's very nice of you to tell us that, but it's not what made it on-screen. Sorry. This, incidentally, makes it non-canon.

But I personally do appreciate the fact that you tried and it's someone else's fault.

Sigh

I was afraid this would be true

Although not canon, neither is speculation

One can speculate that it is unlikely for them to not know about the Borg, one has to look at what is on screen

They encountered the Borg in the 22nd Century, they didn't know they existed in the 24th

That's what's canon

 

[zog]

Posted by Samuel T. Cogley:
I would actually give Mike Sussman's explanation even more weight than that.

I'd analogize it to statutory interpretation in the law. When attempting to interpret what a particular statute means in any given circumstance, especially when it falls silent on a certain point, courts look to the legislative intent and legislative history behind the statute.

Until we see otherwise, Mike's explanations are incredibly relevant.

Mike's not making an apology, or begging forgiveness from the fans. He's simply letting us know what was running through his mind, what was in earlier drafts of the script, what never got filmed, and what was filmed but cut.

These are all realities of the business. It sucks that all of this stuff can't make it into the episode, but that's just the way it goes.

Mike doesn't seem to be expecting us to buy his explanations as canon. He's just letting us know what would've (or could've) been if budgetary or time constraints weren't an issue.

Well said, Sam.

This is the ultimate in interactive TV, and I'm unabashedly praising Mr. Sussman for participating.

[digression: One of the things that impressed me most about JMS (Babylon 5) was the added insights he provided on a public forum about the show. /end digression]

When you consider that the more compelling arguments against "Regeneration" relate to the constraints of the premise [a one-shot, Borg episode on Enterprise], it's great to have some authorative plugs to the various nits and picks, so we can better assess the episode on its own merits.

My thoughts on the episode after reading Mr. Sussman's post notched to B+ from a B (on the Trek/Enterprise scale, on a TV sci-fi scale I still rate it in the C range, the condensed version being that in retrospect it was a story that didn't seem to need telling). [Self-promo: my mini-review near top of p.11 in the Grading Thread independently echoed many other of Sam T. Cogley's points (if that's any endorsement given that it lacks the charm and wit of Sam's evaluations) - and apologies to Mr. Sussman in advance for the harsh sounding "formulaic puke" in the summation, sometimes balancing the flatterers comes a tad too readily.]

And since I'm already here brown-nosing, I'll add my compliments to Sam for another entertaining review, and my thanks.

Keep it up Mike!

[aside to Sam- and I'd give Mike's words almost the same weight as legislative intent, even if that gives him room to retro-think, I have no reason to not take his words at face value.]

 

[Raz]

Posted by Alidar_Jarok:
One can speculate that it is unlikely for them to not know about the Borg, one has to look at what is on screen

Since i've been proven wrong, I should speak up.

The destruction of the camp WAS on screen. I was mistaken. It's canon.

I'm glad it actually made it on screen.

 

[Cyrus]

Posted by Yminale:

Posted by Cyrus:
Since when have Borg used common sense? If they had common sense, they wouldn't bother assimilating Picard in BOBW.

Though it was disastarous to do so in HINDSIGHT. It made perfect sense at the time. Picard was humanity's best commander and using him as the voice of the Borg made them even more chilling.

It was chilling and it was a great episode. But I don't see how it made sense for the Borg, who have never used a spokesman before or since. Sorry, but Borg's actions don't always follow common sense.

Also common sense means different things to different people. The bottom line is that you are making assumptions, and at the same time dismissing the assumptions made by the writer of the episode. And when you make assumptions, then those are not continuity violations.

The writer's intention though well meaning doesn't excuse the poor quality shown on the screen. I mean Shatner's vision of ST5 was breathetaking, but the movie was not very good. The plot holes really detract from the episode. Finally Mr. Sussman does not have a credible explanation for why Picard was clueless when he first met the Borg.

Your reply doesn't seem to be related to my comment. The poor quality is just your opinion and I strongly disagree (as far as Regeneration). Also disagree about the plot holes. As to credible explanation about Picard, it has been discussed in lots of threads in the last few days and quite a few people have come up with credible explanations (include a nice one by AlexR in the "Grade Regeneration" thread).

 

[rafterman1701]

I enjoyed the episode. Thanks for popping in here. I initially thought doing the episode was unnecessary, but I liked how it brought the Borg obsession with Earth full circle. I also liked how Cochrane was still a bit of a drunk and just couldn't stay quiet about what really happened. I just assumed it was an event that happened, all evidence was destroyed and in 200 years it was pretty much forgotten about. Until TNG. Thanks for an entertaining episode.

 

[Guest]

^It's amazing how many people liked the episode!

It was bad people! Come on, you can admit it.

 

[Guest]

Posted by Dr. Bashir:

"Best writers on the show".

Isn't that like being the best students in a special ed class? Look at the shows he's worked on, Voyager and Enteprise---the two bastard children of the Star Trek franchise.

Dude, I don't know you, but I do know that a) your comments in this thread have nothing to do with the subject of the thread, and are therefore not sanctioned, and b) that is a really offensive comment to make, regarding "special ed" class. Why are you even drawing such a comparison? Don't knock the kids in special ed, they try their hardest every day. But no one's as great as you are, huh? Your atrocious sense of propriety displayed in making such an uncouth comment like THAT one makes you look pretty "special" too, Dr. You ought to matriculate in the "I need my ass kicked" "special ed" class. If they need a prof, just let my know. I'll clear my calendar.

Very entertaining review, as always, Sam. And very interesting reply, Sussman. I like the volley.

cheers,
seg

 

[mac]

Posted by Kirk's Glasses:
^It's amazing how many people liked the episode!

It was bad people! Come on, you can admit it.

____________________________________________________________


Okay, It was bad.
But hey, most here seemed to have liked it so good for them.
Mr.Sussman thank you for your remarks, sorry for 10 year old bashers and gushers. I'm not the biggest fan of your show but I have hope for it. And I will continue to speak my feelings on the show; good eps and the bad ones no matter what else anyone may say or think.
Hope you don't mind.

 

[mac]

Posted by SilveRisa:

Posted by Dr. Bashir:

"Best writers on the show".

Isn't that like being the best students in a special ed class? Look at the shows he's worked on, Voyager and Enteprise---the two bastard children of the Star Trek franchise.

Dude, I don't know you, but I do know that a) your comments in this thread have nothing to do with the subject of the thread, and are therefore not sanctioned, and b) that is a really offensive comment to make, regarding "special ed" class. Why are you even drawing such a comparison? Don't knock the kids in special ed, they try their hardest every day. But no one's as great as you are, huh? Your atrocious sense of propriety displayed in making such an uncouth comment like THAT one makes you look pretty "special" too, Dr. You ought to matriculate in the "I need my ass kicked" "special ed" class. If they need a prof, just let my know. I'll clear my calendar.

Very entertaining review, as always, Sam. And very interesting reply, Sussman. I like the volley.

cheers,
seg

____________________________________________________________

Make that a double.
Dude I didn't like the ep. all that much but didn't you get taught something about respect. Bashing the show is one thing, but now 'special ed' students too? That's downright nasty. Maybe you need to get your sense of reality back.

 

[pookha]

The episode was fun and did a lot to restore the borg to their creepy relentless nature the way hurley originally saw them.

And it did at least come up with a reason why the borg were running around the neutral zone .


A thought..
one reason why these borg were less powerful and couldnt adapt as quickly is they are only as good as the power source they are tapped into.

When they are drawing power from a cube or even in first contact when they probably were drawing power directly from the warp engines then they are far formidable then when they were here.

They left because i dont believe they would have been able to assimilate a city.. with so few and so much of the tech destroyed.

The big reason the cdc still has live smallpox is that they know that it exists eslewhere in labs around the globe and they need to do research on vacines ect..

If they knew for sure it was totally gone elsewhere then they would probably destroy theirs..
as it is there had been debates about destroying it anyways.

Nasa has called off the active search for pieces of Columbia.
If someone happens to find some thing they can contact nasa about it and arrangements can be made if they believe it is part of the shuttle.

They had considered calling off the search earlier then they did but the loss of copter finally helped to make the decision.


Records can be lost over time.. and especially evidence that probably is resricted to begin with.

Back some time ago there was a huge fire in a building in st louis. It held a lot of military records including a lot of sevrvice histories of wwll vets.

when my father applied for his disability some time after the fire i had to write to people he had served with to get verification of all the places he served and how he was originally injured in the war since his records were among those lost.

 

[Guest]

Posted by Raz :
There's still a question though, because "catching up" only works if they move faster AND you start behind them.

The dialog indicates that the Borg headed in NX-01's general direction. By the time the Situation Room briefing takes place, Starfleet data estimates the Borg to be within a half dozen light-years of Enterprise...


Sato: Does Starfleet know where the vessel is now?

Archer: Not exactly, but their heading puts them within a half dozen light-years of our current position. We've been ordered to find the ship.

T'Pol: It shouldn't be difficult to isolate their warp signature.

Archer: We'll start searching at these coordinates. Go to tactical alert. Lay in a course.

Mayweather:Aye, sir.


The Borg are encountered when NX-01 responds to a Tarkalean distress signal.

Is the Sol system completely empty or something? Was there nothing in orbit that could have confronted them at all?

The science vessel is authorized to be there, and to excavate debris. Why would Earth's regular defenses question its activities, until it does something suspicious -- like leave orbit at high (3.9) warp?


--------------
The Star Trek Encyclopedia

 

[JohnM]

Posted by pookha:
The episode was fun and did a lot to restore the borg to their creepy relentless nature the way hurley originally saw them.

And it did at least come up with a reason why the borg were running around the neutral zone .


A thought..
one reason why these borg were less powerful and couldnt adapt as quickly is they are only as good as the power source they are tapped into.

When they are drawing power from a cube or even in first contact when they probably were drawing power directly from the warp engines then they are far formidable then when they were here.

They left because i dont believe they would have been able to assimilate a city.. with so few and so much of the tech destroyed.

The big reason the cdc still has live smallpox is that they know that it exists eslewhere in labs around the globe and they need to do research on vacines ect..

If they knew for sure it was totally gone elsewhere then they would probably destroy theirs..
as it is there had been debates about destroying it anyways.

Nasa has called off the active search for pieces of Columbia.
If someone happens to find some thing they can contact nasa about it and arrangements can be made if they believe it is part of the shuttle.

They had considered calling off the search earlier then they did but the loss of copter finally helped to make the decision.


Records can be lost over time.. and especially evidence that probably is resricted to begin with.

Back some time ago there was a huge fire in a building in st louis. It held a lot of military records including a lot of sevrvice histories of wwll vets.

when my father applied for his disability some time after the fire i had to write to people he had served with to get verification of all the places he served and how he was originally injured in the war since his records were among those lost.

Records, technology, bodies, ect........ all can be covered up or "lost"

SECTION 31!!

Maybe Sussman can write the first Section 31 episode showing how they can cover up the TCW, any future technology, the Borg, ect.....

 

[dogsowar]

Posted by Muninn:
I want to thank you, Mr. Sussman, for giving the final word on the 2153 Starfleet encounter with that most tenacious of foes, The Borg. You have settled the hash of every crackpot on the board.

Not quite...
When I saw the episode I thought it looked like the Borg took the wreckage with them, but it wasn't very clear. A simple line from Forester "Where's all the damn wreckage they were talking about?" would have settled that simply.
( besides they couldn't possible get every last bit down to the last nanoprobe )
Also a TV show shouldn't need the writer to have to come back and EXPLAIN why it wworked, you're admitting you have a script problem. All the viewers get is what they see. There was some fluff that could've been dumped to get these important scenes on-screen, there's a diference between a story that makes you think ( Cogenitor actually did this ) and one that's unintelligable.
Last comes judgement, should we do this script? In the case of Regeneration the answer is no, it was only done as a desperate ratings grab... wich failed thankfully.

Now please play nicely on the BBS children.