Superman

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by urbandefault, Jan 18, 2020.

  1. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Early Superman killed villains, and not through accidents. He tossed a plane with criminals into the ground to explode, mocked criminals fate as they were driving over a cliff, etc. (some time ago, I posted examples of this kind of early Superman behavior on this board), and was nothing less than judge, jury and executioner. He was very much a product of the pro-vigilante American culture of that period.

    Late 60s Batman readers did not want Robin around, except in brief cameos, which is why at the same time Grayson was sent off to college (Batman #217 from December of 1969), he had his own, college-oriented stories in Detective Comics, giving fans the return of the solo, dark Batman they wanted for so long.
     
  2. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Interesting. I started reading Batman in the late 60s (or, more accurately, having it read to me) and I liked both stories with and without Robin.
     
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  3. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    Latest comparable figures I have is for September 2021.

    In September 2021, issue #779 of the monthly WW title sold an est. 30,000 units, with another 18,000 units sold for issue #4 of the miniseries "Wonder Woman: Black & Gold", as well as 17,000 units of issue #7 of "Sensational Wonder Woman". Combined, 65,000 units of new Wonder Woman comics were sold.

    In September 2011, issue #1 of the monthly WW title sold 76,214 units. Of course, this was the launch of the New52, and there was a special hype surrounding all DC titles that month. For context, the preceding month of August 2011 had issue #614 of WW sell 29,223 units, with another 29,492 units sold for #3 of the event tie-in miniseries "Flashpoint: Wonder Woman & the Furies", as well as 10,079 units of the one-shot "DC Retroactive: Wonder Woman in the 80s" and 9,290 units of "DC Retroactive: Wonder Woman in the 90s". Combined, 78084 units of new Wonder Woman comics were sold in August '11, though comparing those numbers among themselves, it appears to me the Flashpoint event tie-in factored heavily into the sales of WW & the Furies.

    In September 2001, "Wonder Woman" #174 sold 32,221 units, being the sole WW title of the month.

    So, compared to ten years ago, the regular Wonder Woman title sells about the same, considering the hype and high sales of the early New52 issues as an extraordinary event, while the character does not need to rely on event tie-ins to sell more units of miniseries. Considering that digital sales are not included, the regular WW title is selling at least as good as twenty years ago, while the character apparently not being popular enough to sell miniseries or oneshot titles.
     
  4. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So, all WW titles combined are selling less than a single title ten years ago. That's not good.
     
  5. dupersuper

    dupersuper Commodore Commodore

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    But about the same as 20 years ago, when they weren't part of a company wide relaunch event.
     
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  6. Kai "the spy"

    Kai "the spy" Admiral Admiral

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    Again, the September 2011 issue was a much-hyped reboot starting with a new #1, which of course sold way better than a #779 that's mid-story would. Which is why I gave the August 2011 sales figures for context. For further context, the hype of the reboot did not last, as by #23 in August 2013 (so about two years later), sales were down to 34,747 units again, with no other WW title that month.

    For a better comparison to the #1 of 2011, January 2020 saw the anniversary issue #750, which took the number one spot in the sales charts that month and sold 167,377 units, about double the New52 launch, despite a $9.99 cover price.

    So I would not worry about the sales of Wonder Woman comics too much. They're just fine.
     
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  7. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    At the time, readers associated Robin with the image of the character from the TV series, which did not sit right with fans wanting Batman to return to his darker roots. Separating the two characters worked well for Robin, as it gave him independence to grow as his own hero while in college, and the concurrent Teen Titans stories had the group deal with issues (e.g., campus protests, being complicit in a death, etc.,) they would never experience during their "the teen sidekicks of..." days just a few years earlier.
     
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  8. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No they didn't, readers were smart enough to separate the two, just as they did with the cartoon version of Aquaman and the comics version later on.

    Non fans had the trouble with this. And many writers. But fans of the comic were fine.
     
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  9. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wrong. Letters pages were filled with readers complaining that the comic version of Robin was taking on traits from that TV series, including the "holy-ims" made (in)famous by the Dozier TV show. This is one of the reasons Batman readers so desperately wanted him as far away from Batman as possible.
     
  10. The Knappos

    The Knappos Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    One of my favourite jokes in Batman Forever:

    “Holy rusted metal, Batman!”
    “What?”
    “The island’s made of metal. And it’s rusted and full of holes.”
     
  11. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I don't mean this disrespectfully but I am wondering how old you are. Because, as I mentioned before, I remember the sixties and I don't recall things nearly as anti-Robin as you claim. I am curious where your information comes from.
     
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  12. The Realist

    The Realist Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Today is the 95th birthday of Phyllis Coates, still our friend @Ryan Thomas Riddle's favorite screen Lois Lane.



    Coates was Lois in the very first Superman feature film, Superman and the Mole-Men, and went on to play the role for the first season of the Adventures of Superman TV series, opposite George Reeves's Man of Steel. She's the last surviving cast member of that show. Her Lois was steely, snappy, and determined. As seen several times in the clips above, Coates had a scream Fay Wray would envy, but she was no damsel: Just watch her smack a fool at 1:04.

    Coates was not as large with the legacy casting as her AoS co-star Jack Larson or her successor as Lois, Noel Neill, but she did do a nice turn as mother to Teri Hatcher's Lois in the first-season finale of Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman.

    A very happy birthday to a great lady!
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Sales are irrelevant.

    Unless there's been some change to the deal in the last ten years.

    There has to be a monthly Wonder Woman comic for DC to retain the rights to Wonder Woman.

    That's 80 million a year worth of frisbees and key chains.
     
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  14. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Based on your response, I would question you in the same way, because i'm, old enough to remember Robbins and Novick beginning their landmark work on Batman, and old enough to not only know other readers from the 60s who had their negative opinions about Robin (and the TV version's influence),but read the letters pages from the era in question where fans openly complained about Robin as described here. Its simply matter of history that so many fans not only wanted Batman to return to his dark roots, but wanted Robin anywhere other than Batman's side, hence one of the many reasons the split occurred in the comics, with Robin getting his solo feature in Detective and making sporadic appearances in the main title.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  15. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    I'm not sure what the majority opinion was from the 60s(my father read the comics and didn't like Robin either) or today, but I can't help but notice that the majority of Batman films, live action or animated, feature Batman without Robin. I don't think that's a coincidence.
     
  16. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I
    Its not; in the late 60s, innumerable Batman fans who sent letters to Batman and Detective Comics longed for the early years of the solo Batman, not saddled with the way Robin had been written in the most stereotypical of teenage sidekick manner. When Robin was sent to college and only had sporadic appearances in the main title, fans rejoiced, and as noted earlier, Robin benefitted, as he was given a chance to mature and deal with more serious issues. This was the direction DC was taking in changing the idea of who a sidekick was, which was hammered home with incredible success in the pages of Green Lantern #85-86 (September & November of 1971) with Green Arrow's sidekick Roy Harper (Speedy) revealed to be a drug addict. DC was responding to the rejection of the worn-out, barely imaginative tropes that dominated the Golden Age and migrated into the early Silver Age. That, and in Robin's case, the way he was presented on the 1966-68 TV series only made so many Batman fans want Robin out of the picture.
     
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  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the early 80s, Burt Ward said the word "Bummer" which was at that point the rudest word I had ever heard uttered on TV.

    Robin is a bad ass.
     
  18. the G-man

    the G-man Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Thanks. I wasn't sure if this was how you remembered it or you hearing/reading how others remembered it.