Hey, I'm not saying it's perfect. Every episode has things that bother me a bit, but it's miles ahead of Discovery or Picard, and the closest thing to "classic" Trek I've seen in 25 years.
Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread
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Hey, I'm not saying it's perfect. Every episode has things that bother me a bit, but it's miles ahead of Discovery or Picard, and the closest thing to "classic" Trek I've seen in 25 years.
We shooting for perfection now?
No he isn't, not by a long shot.
Yeah, SNW is a really fun show to watch. And that, to me, makes it a damn perfect show.
And thank gods for that. The show's a big improvement over most of later Trek, and a major way in which it's superior is stepping away from the overreaching "this is the correct answer" pandering. The last thing we need are pat solutions put forth by Hollywood screenwriters.
Una's trial was the most real that Trek's ever gotten with these courtroom hearing/trial dramas, and probably the best of them because of it. The issues were very much current problems, presented with some complexity and nuance. You didn't see that in "Court Martial," which was essentially a Perry Mason mystery procedural, or "The Measure of A Man" which was well-written but built around a wholly contrived conflict designed primarily to put Data in danger.
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SNW is what earlier streaming Treks should have been more like and we finally have it.
Agreed. The show trusts the audience in coming to it's own conclusions, to make up their minds or just be entertained.
Entertainment is not prescriptive philosophy.
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Who's "we"?
One of my favorites is the first-year show thar I can't bear to rewatch, " Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach."
Well you said it's not perfect.
Curious if that is the target.
Idle curiosity if nothing else.
Star Trek fans if there's swearing.
Star Trek fans if there's swearing in French .
Star Trek fans if there's swearing in French .
(Not hating on SNW here, it's still a fun show but as a flagship Star Trek show I want to to be more than just fun or to have any issues dismissed as it's supposed to be "just a fun show" and that's enough)
Una's trial was a great episode for the most part but the message was very messy. It was wide reaching and can be applied to the trans, queer, immigrant, religious, and racialized communities but I feel like that nebulousness can weaken the message. "Ad Astra Per Aspera" doesn't tie itself to any specific moment in history so I feel that it remains a vague allegory that doesn't truly confront society or the audience. "The Measure of A Man" associated the dehumanisation of an android with the dehumanisation of enslaved black people, and "Space Seed" took a very pointed stance on eugenics. And speaking of, aren't the augmented Illyrians akin to eugenicists, something that is not good in Star Trek? Like the augmentations are imposed on children by parents which draws a line to how marginalised children might be forced to conform or have surgeries forced on them? I don't know if I can see the Illyrians as metaphor for marginalised people.
Una's story here can't be resolved because the show is stuck as a prequel and we know that in the future augmented people are still discriminated against. She just has to trust that a decidedly untrustworthy system towards her will not tokenise her (oops maybe Boimler's "Ad Astra Per Aspera" poster is evidence that they did...), and SNW doesn't commit itself to showing us what systemic change means. Una's story becomes one of an individual triumph where she, one of the "good ones", conforms to Starfleet standards and gets to join the system and change it... but she doesn't. Disappointing considering that the entire episode beforehand did a fantastic job at dissecting systemic oppression. And that in "Ghosts of Illyria" Una was disdainful at being tokenised as one of the "good ones." Her story becomes about upholding Starfleet as an institution, in opposition with anti-eugenics themes and the idea that one's place in the world is based on their principles and beliefs.
Am I missing something with M'Benga in S2? His primary episode has the man suffer PTSD from the war but also it turns out he's a super badass fighter and killer, subverting any sympathy with war veterans by making him a cold-blooded killer? It feels like a revenge story instead of remembering that Star Trek isn't about murdering people who might deserve it but about answering to our better selves. I know Babs Olusanmokun is a BJJ black belt but it seems that's all they wanted to do with him this season. His story also suffers from SNW not connecting its themes with pertinent real world issues. Ok so in "Under the Cloak of War" Captain Pike represents an untainted version of Starfleet idealism that the M'Benga and the other war vets downplay their trauma for to not let him down or not let down Starfleet and its ideals. M'Benga convinces that wounded officer to believe in Starfleet idealism which leads to him to give his life in combat, moral certainty in Starfleet led to pain and trauma.
M'Benga killing the Klingon ambassador has no effects on larger Klingon-Federation geopolitics but also has nothing definitive to say about the characters at the end of the episode. There is a setup of accountability preceding forgiveness and reconciliation on a character level and a political level. But this is undermined with the ambiguous cutaway and framing of the Klingon ambassador's death, we don't know who instigated the fight and now have to question M'Benga's moral values because we don't know what he's actually done. But we have no context for this line of questioning nor are we given a reason to ask this question as the episode concludes. Pike doesn't confront M'Benga with a firm moral counterpoint to a perceived moral failing like Sisko did with Worf, asking us to consider the needs of the Federation or ourselves and our loved ones, or like Picard did with Wesley, on his moral failings and shying away from the truth. Pike's meek confrontation doesn't allow the episode to provide a firm or even complex moral question, and doesn't even use the ambiguity with intention to point us to what we should be thinking about (see "In the Pale Moonlight" and Season 1's "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach").
Then again, maybe I, as someone who hasn't suffered trauma as the characters or other viewers have, am wrong in my reading or I just can't see the messaging as some might. But then again, the ambiguity of the ending doesn't point to a clear intention of what the audience should be asking. Maybe Pike has a reaction that we disagree with, maybe M'Benga and Chapel try to save the ambassador's life, there is no moral compass to judge the episode.
SNW is a fun show but it doesn't have that bite that I like from TOS, TNG and DS9. It's too trusting in in the system, in Starfleet as an organisation, remaining uncritical of something shown as ostensibly flawed. And it's too ambiguous with its messaging, afraid to truly connect with real world issues.
Una's trial was a great episode for the most part but the message was very messy. It was wide reaching and can be applied to the trans, queer, immigrant, religious, and racialized communities but I feel like that nebulousness can weaken the message. "Ad Astra Per Aspera" doesn't tie itself to any specific moment in history so I feel that it remains a vague allegory that doesn't truly confront society or the audience. "The Measure of A Man" associated the dehumanisation of an android with the dehumanisation of enslaved black people, and "Space Seed" took a very pointed stance on eugenics. And speaking of, aren't the augmented Illyrians akin to eugenicists, something that is not good in Star Trek? Like the augmentations are imposed on children by parents which draws a line to how marginalised children might be forced to conform or have surgeries forced on them? I don't know if I can see the Illyrians as metaphor for marginalised people.
Una's story here can't be resolved because the show is stuck as a prequel and we know that in the future augmented people are still discriminated against. She just has to trust that a decidedly untrustworthy system towards her will not tokenise her (oops maybe Boimler's "Ad Astra Per Aspera" poster is evidence that they did...), and SNW doesn't commit itself to showing us what systemic change means. Una's story becomes one of an individual triumph where she, one of the "good ones", conforms to Starfleet standards and gets to join the system and change it... but she doesn't. Disappointing considering that the entire episode beforehand did a fantastic job at dissecting systemic oppression. And that in "Ghosts of Illyria" Una was disdainful at being tokenised as one of the "good ones." Her story becomes about upholding Starfleet as an institution, in opposition with anti-eugenics themes and the idea that one's place in the world is based on their principles and beliefs.
Am I missing something with M'Benga in S2? His primary episode has the man suffer PTSD from the war but also it turns out he's a super badass fighter and killer, subverting any sympathy with war veterans by making him a cold-blooded killer? It feels like a revenge story instead of remembering that Star Trek isn't about murdering people who might deserve it but about answering to our better selves. I know Babs Olusanmokun is a BJJ black belt but it seems that's all they wanted to do with him this season. His story also suffers from SNW not connecting its themes with pertinent real world issues. Ok so in "Under the Cloak of War" Captain Pike represents an untainted version of Starfleet idealism that the M'Benga and the other war vets downplay their trauma for to not let him down or not let down Starfleet and its ideals. M'Benga convinces that wounded officer to believe in Starfleet idealism which leads to him to give his life in combat, moral certainty in Starfleet led to pain and trauma.
M'Benga killing the Klingon ambassador has no effects on larger Klingon-Federation geopolitics but also has nothing definitive to say about the characters at the end of the episode. There is a setup of accountability preceding forgiveness and reconciliation on a character level and a political level. But this is undermined with the ambiguous cutaway and framing of the Klingon ambassador's death, we don't know who instigated the fight and now have to question M'Benga's moral values because we don't know what he's actually done. But we have no context for this line of questioning nor are we given a reason to ask this question as the episode concludes. Pike doesn't confront M'Benga with a firm moral counterpoint to a perceived moral failing like Sisko did with Worf, asking us to consider the needs of the Federation or ourselves and our loved ones, or like Picard did with Wesley, on his moral failings and shying away from the truth. Pike's meek confrontation doesn't allow the episode to provide a firm or even complex moral question, and doesn't even use the ambiguity with intention to point us to what we should be thinking about (see "In the Pale Moonlight" and Season 1's "Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach").
Then again, maybe I, as someone who hasn't suffered trauma as the characters or other viewers have, am wrong in my reading or I just can't see the messaging as some might. But then again, the ambiguity of the ending doesn't point to a clear intention of what the audience should be asking. Maybe Pike has a reaction that we disagree with, maybe M'Benga and Chapel try to save the ambassador's life, there is no moral compass to judge the episode.
SNW is a fun show but it doesn't have that bite that I like from TOS, TNG and DS9. It's too trusting in in the system, in Starfleet as an organisation, remaining uncritical of something shown as ostensibly flawed. And it's too ambiguous with its messaging, afraid to truly connect with real world issues.
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?
The Gorn in season 1 was literally just a mindless animal - an infant that was all deadly instinct with no education. In season 2, they're wearing armor, using computers, using weapons, and pulling off sophisticated transporter tricks to keep their targets from escaping.
You're talking to the wrong guy. I was responding to someone else's rather negative take on the show in response to my rather glowing review. No series is perfect, so it's never a target.
Thematically and in terms of storytelling, SNW is the most like TOS of anything produced since that series was cancelled. That, perforce, requires jettisoning much of the sophomoric philosophizing and "social commentary" that the franchise has embraced over the decades in order to flatter trekkies that engagement with it is somehow important in ways assumed to be more adult or dignified than simply the joy of indulging in an elaborate, exciting fantasy narrative.
Harve Bennett phrased it exactly right when he said that Star Trek “has enormous snob appeal,...It purports to be a program for the bright."
Harve Bennett phrased it exactly right when he said that Star Trek “has enormous snob appeal,...It purports to be a program for the bright."
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And they should be enough from an entertainment franchise.
The ambiguities are on purpose because it relies on the audience to engage and discuss rather than preaching.
And, yes, I think you're completely misreading M'Benga and assuming that he is a "cold blooded killer" rather than a man who suffered and had to do a difficult mission and live with painful choices. But, that is the beauty of the episode; it is not black and white.
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Nailed it. This is everything.
I'm sure we all have thoughts and opinions about these kinds of social and interpersonal problems and how they can be addressed and people's lives improved. There's no need - really, not much room - to be spoon fed the "correct" way to think about it all by people who write pop fiction.
And another thing. Is everyone able to sing this well except me? I had the same thought back when Buffy the Vampire Slayer had its musical episode back in the day. These actors aren't hired for their singing abilities but they apparently can be at the very least coached into making a damned musical, and it works! That's impressive, and I have no idea how they do it.
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