Stigma and Fusion - ethics 101

[Guest]

... oh man. I wasn't gonna bring this up because I knew I'd get the basher thing on me... but here it is.

Stigma is a serious problem. This entire situation, coupled with Fusion... is a real can of ethical worms. The thread of continuity here (which is flawed) points to darkness even Janeway's tub managed to avoid.

Someone is eventually gonna show this show to the right person (prolly a writer... a female lawyer would be ironic) and something will be said. That Vulcan guy should be in jail. Archer should have called up the VHC. In Stigma he acts surprised when the mind meld is described as a 'rape'. Did he forget the Vulcan guy attacking him? Well... he sorta might not have known... but sorta in the same way he forgot to ask who those guys who wanted to sell the Vulcan Female as a sex slave what species they are... oh and why were they on ENT stealing the props?

Worse... T'Pol should have stood up. Not doing so made her weak... protecting the Melders in Stigma later itself is pretty weak as motivation. She didn't attend the naughty party down the street and got a disease... she got raped. Who cares by who?

But people don't see this... it's all Romulan warp this, and cute actor that. Space ships! Andorians! And so what... it's a TV show to many. You may be picking up on these things in the story and wondering why other people don't. See it's funny how society trains the mind to accept things. You don't even notice... not even TV producers do.

 

[reno floyd]

I see this. Stigma was a mass of contraditctions and poorly written. It also didn't fit with their own episode from before, Fusion. The whole thing is so woefully misconceived. It's got NOTHING to do with whether Vulcans can or cannot do this that or the other thing. The whole problem is the rape, and the mixed messages that surround it.

It's a shambles and highlights just how dumb B&B are.

 

[23skidoo]

I don't recall the word "rape" being uttered in Stigma. Maybe I saw a censored print of the episode?

Cheers

Alex

 

[Borgminister]

T'Pol was protecting an entire segment of the populace, not one evil doer.

And in Fusion, T'Pol initially consented, only then did he go too far, and she pushed him off.

It was much like a guy getting his face slapped by taking one too many squeezes during heavy petting.

To me the analogy of rape is flawed, because T'Pol was successful in saying "no" despite his persistency.

 

[reno floyd]

Borgminister, she clearly wasn't successful - she contracted a flaming disease!

 

[Borgminister]

I wonder if the aggressive Vulcan knew that (a) he was a carrier and (b) could potentially pass along a disease to another Vulcan...

I would still not classfy his act as akin to rape, not even attempted rape, since in either case, the act itself is completed or foiled with the perpetrator running away.

I do not think he intensionally harmed T'Pol, merely thought she needed further "coaxing" to submit to the fusion.

I am NOT saying what he did was right, he was a borish lout, a self-centered bully who didn't know when to stop. But there is a difference between that and the criminal act of rape.

 

[Guest]

Posted by Borgminister:
snip!

In your defence. When I saw this show I didn't get that she was 'mind raped' at first. When I finally clued in I justt chuckled and figured they just didn't get it across to the audience... me. But... from the events in Stigma...

She got a disease from a guy she HAD to know was a Melder! But she didn't in Fusion... cause they hadn't made it up yet! ARG!

This is another big problem with these two shows... they never tied them together well. This Melder thing didn't exist until after Fusion. But T'Pol must have known all about them and the disease.

Why T'Pol??? Why did you go anywhere near this guy (he's cute I guess... whatever)... T'Pol is a freak.

Her actions are inconsistant from the holes in the show almost as much as the weak reasoning behind T'Pols silence about being raped. Hey, it's great she has ethics... but what a time to get some! If she tells the VHC she got the disease from the cute Vulcan guy... I bet that Fat Vulcans Admiral Dad will send a ship over to look those emotional Vulcans up pronto.

 

[reno floyd]

Posted by Borgminister:
stuff

Not even attempted rape? Please...

 

[Lady Conqueror]

I think the analogy to rape is a fair one, but I disagree with the interpretation.

In Stigma he acts surprised when the mind meld is described as a 'rape'. Did he forget the Vulcan guy attacking him? Well... he sorta might not have known... but sorta in the same way he forgot to ask who those guys who wanted to sell the Vulcan Female as a sex slave what species they are... oh and why were they on ENT stealing the props?

I don't see Archer being surprised as a problem and certainly not similar to the Ferengi encounter anyway. He only had what T'Pol told him in "Fusion" to go on after all. T'Pol being the private Vulcan that she is probably only reported that Tolaris attacked her (she may not even have said how) - Archer certainly only says "you attacked my science officer" rather than "you mind-raped my science officer".

And T'Pol chose deliberately not to come out about the mind rape because that would allow others to sympathise with her for the wrong reasons - instead of learning that the way in which the disease is caught is irrelevant and care and sympathy should be given to all, all they would learn is that in T'Pol's case it's all right to sympathise with her because one of those "Bad people" forced it on her.

It wouldn't change anybody's mindset about the disease and that's what she wanted to do. That's not a weak decision - in fact it's more gutsy because she would have been blamed for something that wasn't her fault in these Vulcans minds.

 

[Borgminister]

Reno, I do not defend his actions, but I also do not defend T'Pol's actions. She was curious, she went along, then decided the water's too damn hot and got out. He was definately crossed the line of civil behavior, but in humans, when hormones are at work, the lines also get blurred sometimes.

In the end, "no" means "no", and she did get out of the mindlock. Do you think if his real intent was indeed "mind rape" he wouldn't have tried again, and again--he was bigger than her, it would have been no problem.

 

[Borgminister]

Posted by Plum:

Posted by Borgminister:
snip!

In your defence. When I saw this show I didn't get that she was 'mind raped' at first. When I finally clued in I justt chuckled and figured they just didn't get it across to the audience... me. But... from the events in Stigma...

She got a disease from a guy she HAD to know was a Melder! But she didn't in Fusion... cause they hadn't made it up yet! ARG!

This is another big problem with these two shows... they never tied them together well. This Melder thing didn't exist until after Fusion. But T'Pol must have known all about them and the disease.

Why T'Pol??? Why did you go anywhere near this guy (he's cute I guess... whatever)... T'Pol is a freak.

Her actions are inconsistant from the holes in the show almost as much as the weak reasoning behind T'Pols silence about being raped. Hey, it's great she has ethics... but what a time to get some! If she tells the VHC she got the disease from the cute Vulcan guy... I bet that Fat Vulcans Admiral Dad will send a ship over to look those emotional Vulcans up pronto.

Agreed with the T'Pol is a freak--she does get into that S.F. jazz scene after all... As to contracting that disease, maybe she figured it hadn't progressed to a point where it was possible. Or the odds were in her favor. There are ways to explain that away... I really don't see the problem.

 

[reno floyd]

Posted by Borgminister:
Reno, I do not defend his actions, but I also do not defend T'Pol's actions. She was curious, she went along, then decided the water's too damn hot and got out. He was definately crossed the line of civil behavior, but in humans, when hormones are at work, the lines also get blurred sometimes.

In the end, "no" means "no", and she did get out of the mindlock. Do you think if his real intent was indeed "mind rape" he wouldn't have tried again, and again--he was bigger than her, it would have been no problem.

Blurred, yes. And her actions were putting her in danger (who knows she might be a Vulcan equivalent of a thrill seeker) but it only takes one action out of step for it to become attempted rape. People have been convicted for less.

Usually when a person attacks to get at a woman again - rape occurs outright. There's no 'attempt' about it.

 

[Guest]

Posted by the lovely Lady Conqueror:
I think the analogy to rape is a fair one, but I disagree with the interpretation.

I don't see Archer being surprised as a problem and certainly not similar to the Ferengi encounter anyway.

I don'no... it's pretty Archer like to me.

He only had what T'Pol told him in "Fusion" to go on after all. T'Pol being the private Vulcan that she is probably only reported that Tolaris attacked her (she may not even have said how) - Archer certainly only says "you attacked my science officer" rather than "you mind-raped my science officer".

She reported something? To who? Wha?

Attacked... yeah. The language seems... evasive. That's my writers ear... I'm getting a red alert... riiiight here. You're technically correct there my good Lady. But I don't don't like it one bit.

And T'Pol chose deliberately not to come out about the mind rape because that would allow others to sympathise with her for the wrong reasons - instead of learning that the way in which the disease is caught is irrelevant and care and sympathy should be given to all, all they would learn is that in T'Pol's case it's all right to sympathise with her because one of those "Bad people" forced it on her.

It wouldn't change anybody's mindset about the disease and that's what she wanted to do. That's not a weak decision - in fact it's more gutsy because she would have been blamed for something that wasn't her fault in these Vulcans minds.

Yes... again you put it perfectly. T'Pol went out on a limb to defend these oppressed Melders... she kept her silence for a greater good she new Vulcan should stand for. She believed in this... just as that Doctor who turned out to be a Melder got up and ... came out! LOL!!! Sorry. Umm... well sure... it was great to see at least two Vulcans in this show have some ethics.

Oh, I'm bad.

But we aren't really told why T'Pol is so keen on defending these Melders... for all we know the only Melders she ever met raped her and gave her a disease. Why does she sympathise with the Melders? Wish she'd spoke up in Fusion!

So, let's say she knew these people were oppressed Melders in Fusion (even if they had thier own name for themselves and T'Pol described them as... Valar.. oh that's Gandalf... heh heh. Whatever), she 'experiments' and gets jumped ... date raped.

But she is so concerned about the terrible things that will happen to the Melders (and to her as she has the disease... but the vulcans let her go anyway (?)) she stays silent. Now... why would arresting this one guy make things really much worse for these Melders? Bad press? More Hangings?

It almost works... but we need T'Pol to have such a clear need to do this that she is willing to put up with the horror of knowing the guy who raped her is free, out there, and laughing at her. I wish Stigma really told me this... but it was really about this weird ass confusing plot!

 

[Guest]

Posted by Borgminister:
Reno, I do not defend his actions, but I also do not defend T'Pol's actions. She was curious, she went along, then decided the water's too damn hot and got out. He was definately crossed the line of civil behavior, but in humans, when hormones are at work, the lines also get blurred sometimes.

In the end, "no" means "no", and she did get out of the mindlock. Do you think if his real intent was indeed "mind rape" he wouldn't have tried again, and again--he was bigger than her, it would have been no problem.

See... this is why I never bought the rape thing it was supposed to be. And Stigma just hammered the rape synario in. The incident itself was... tame. Really, it was like teens or something...

 

[Lady Conqueror]

Well at the end of "Fusion" I figured T'Pol was just happy to see the back of the guy. And yes she probably should have said more at that stage - letting Tolaris get away here could be considered weak - but is something a lot of women do (let the guy get away because they'd rather forget it or they've been made to feel that they were partly responsible). I can understand this mindset a little more from T'Pol because Vulcans are more reserved and private about, well, everything and since she initially agreed to the mind meld in the first place I can see some self-guilt in there as well.

Then sometime after "Fusion" she finds out that she developed this disease. She and Phlox research it and find out it's caused by melds. At this point Tolaris is long gone - and so likely not easy to find (they would be trying to avoid other Vulcans anyway most likely because they get shunned as well for embracing their emotions).

So she could come clean at this point but why bother if the chances of catching these guys are long gone.

Then other Vulcans find out about her disease in "Stigma" and she realises the prejudices are very deep and so she makes the conscious decision here to not reveal it. At this point her decision becomes gutsy rather than weak because now she's choosing to withhold the info on moral grounds.

EDIT: Oh and I think she was smart enough to realise that Tolaris was one bad egg rather than casting them all with the same stone because of what they were (otherwise she would be just as bad as the Doctor Vulcans).

 

[Guest]

... great points Lady Conqueror.

I can't get past the end of Fusion. At that moment... I would have shot that Vulcan guy... no matter how cute. I'd tell the other ship to heave too, shoot 'em in the arse with the phase canon to send them off, and drop off lover boy at the next Vulcan Cruiser.

You point out this struggle T'Pol has between protecting the Melders and protecting her very self... it's gotta be heart breaking... this poor chick is really beat on in this show. Now... having this guy free is bad enough... but now he's unreachable? That's kinda cheap... Call up that Fat Vulcans Dad! Is it said in the show? Can't rememeber. I'm almost interested in reading a script. Hmmmm.

But the big thing is Stigma gives us none of the insight you have shown above Lady Conqueror. T'Pol just seemed to be freaking out. We are never told just what this disease really means. What happens to these Melders? Why is it so neccessary for T'Pol to go through this horror show? WWhy the heck don't the Vulcans give her a shot at least! We don't even know when T'Pol will die! Worse... she can't mind meld. She can't! She's a broken Vulcan... in more ways than one.

Maybe she drops dead on the bridge suddenly in the Borg ep.

 

[Lady Conqueror]

^Well then they can revive her with nanobots

I still haven't seen "Stigma" so I don't know exactly how anything is presented. One of these days I'll get my copy and then see how I interpret stuff.

T'Pol is kinda put through the wringer a lot though, poor thing.

 

[Guest]

^ lol!!! hahah

 

[voodoowoman]

Mind rape? She agreed to it! She decided mid stream that she didn't like the way he kissed and then cried rape! How does one get a terminal disease from mental contact? Can someone please explain the physiology of this? I do need this much consistency. This proves it. If a woman "feels" raped then she is raped. No legal standard is necessary, no evidence, no nothing. Just her word.
T'POl is a little adventeress. He did her no physical harm whatsoever, and what is hysterically funny is that poor Archer gets his arm broken but that doesn't seem to be a crime. Any timy disrespect to a female is automatically a criminal act. Open assault (maybe with intent to kill), is glossed over. What about her boorishness? Come on up Tolaris, let's meld. Did she not realize the sexual content of the dreams? Is she such a vulcan girl scout that she can't figure out his intent?

 

[oliverfa]

It has been always the same with all the "moral dilemas" episodes in all Trek. IMHO Trek should be a positive vision of the future, telling that this is posible, not a kind of lesson about what is good or bad. And on the entertaining side, this episodes are plain boring. Give us an intringuing and interesting plot, not a boring trial.