Stigma and Fusion - ethics 101

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Guest, Feb 26, 2003.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thanks. I'm also a LOTR fan and enjoy archery so one day when I was playing around with a Tolkien name generator one of the names I got was mithrilbow and I liked the sound of it. :)

    When I saw the IDIC symbol I wondered then if it was just Vulcan set dressing or if we'd be hearing anything mentioned about the concept. Even though I can play around with quotes and previous episodes and rationalize why ENT vulcans act the way that they do I don't feel I should have to. Afterall it is the writers job to tell us the story and hopefully make it fit with the other stories they've already told us, not the other way around. I do appreciate the attempt at added depth because IMO some of the vulcans in later series just seemed like cardboard characters or extras with ear tips. I just wish they would be more clear about why the Vulcan's are the way they are in ENT and not use the Vulcans as a convenient way to further a plotline when it appears out of character. Still, they've got my attention and I'm waiting to see how this all plays out and fits in with later series.

    Oh and I have to agree that running the script by Lady Conquerer for a final edit would be the logical and ethical thing to do. :D ;)
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    [​IMG]
    ... be gentle ... ;)
     
  3. Lady Conqueror

    Lady Conqueror Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Hey!! I'm sure I could come up with plenty of non-mysterious reasons for the guys to have their shirts off every week ;)

    They have mentioned IDIC a couple of times in ENT so far - although strangely it's been Phlox bringing it up on each occasion (at least he's talking to T'Pol when he does though). "The Andorian Incident" is an example.

    Great post about Spock's "veneer of civilisation" lines Mithrilbow. Sounds about right to me - and could also explain why they have the IDIC party line without necessarily following it to the full letter.

    But I'd say their dealings with humanity will help them in gaining the true nature of IDIC over the centuries. Since we're most likely to put them to the test about it :lol:

    Hey keep this thread going for a few more days - my copy of "Stigma" should be arriving sometime this week.
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    OK! :D

    ... and you must check out voodoowomans' thread about Vulcan as a Matriarchy! It's a great read! Hope she posts here again. :) Come on... let's have some sweet, sweet voodoo! ;)
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I have to agree with Lady C on much of her analysis. In Fusion, I believe that Tolaris was manipulating her from the beginning with the unwitting help of Archer who kept pushing her to spend time with the Vulcans, to overcome her distrust of them, to give emotions a chance. For all we know, he was manipulating her telepathically as well. Notice how close he stands (well within the personal space of a race like the Vulcans). He may also be in the early stages of pon farr (They note that they have been in space for 8, count them 8 years which would mean nothing to Archer but does to us and we do not even know if that applies to ALL of the Vulcans on the ship. Why do Vulcan females have a heigthened sense of smell...hunting...defense mechanism...sexual attraction). He tells her not to meditate and she has a wet dream. Why? In any event, she does initially invite him to her room for guided meditation and it told about an ancient technique which she appears unfamilar with. Does she know or not? If it is ancient and sexual, maybe good girls don't hear about it and 60 is not that old if you live 200-300 years. He starts and she most definitely says NO. She starts to struggle. This sounds pretty clear to me. Maybe Archer didn't associate it with rape, but TNG had something similar in which Picard says that the Federation has no laws regarding this form of attack (Forgot the ep.)

    Now, I think it is clear that she feels some responsibility. The Vulcans would condemn her for simply showing an interest in emotions. Note Soval's gratification is an emotional indulgence. By their definition, she has already committed an unforgivable act. Anything more is obviously to be condemned. I think she was just glad to get the guy off the ship.

    Once she finds out she has a disease, they begin to research it. Maybe she remembers odds and ends from the past. You know, 'about those people'. In any event, I have heard of the Black Death' as have many others. Without researching it, how many of you can tell me the signs and symptoms, different forms, method of transmission. If I gave you some time (almost a year according to Phlox) you could become an expert in the disease, it's effect on Europe, the Catholic church, the Enlightenment, literature, etc.

    So in Stigma Archer has forgotten all about Toleris. He did not know T'Pol was sick. She probably never mentioned it again, preferring that he forget. HE WAS NOT ATTACKED. Does Archer obsess over Reed's wounds, Trip's Pregnancy. Probably not!! They have been through a great deal in that year. It happened, he resolved it as best he thought he could. It is over and he moves on because HE was not affected. How often have victims of some trama been told by others to move on. When you're the victim, it is difficult. When your not, it is relatively easy to move on.

    The fact that T'Pol did not condemn all melders is a good, noble, honorable thing. Just as not condemning all arabs for 9/11 is a good thing.

    Vulcans have emotions. They just repress them. There is a difference.
     
  6. Wichita

    Wichita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Location:
    Over the Rainbow
    First, let me commend all that have been involved in this thread. Given the very sensitive subject matter, the posts have been well and thoughtfully considered.

    I'm afraid I have nothing to bring except more confusion. After "Fusion" I would have said an attempted "date rape" type scenario had taken place. Given that we are told in "Stigma" that she contracted a disease as a result, now should we believe the mind rape was completed?

    I am hesitant to accept that T'Pol was totally manipulated by Tolaris. It seemed at the time that she was somewhat of a thrill seeker. It's very possible that she knew mind melding was something not spoken of - and therefore somewhat exciting - without knowing about the true scope and possibilities of the disease.

    Rather than T'Pol becoming some sort of perpetual victim, it would seem more realistic to me were she someone portrayed as having made a poor decision. Who among us hasn't done that and paid the consequences? It doesn't make her bad or mean that she should feel guilty for what happened. Tolaris still bears the responsibility for his actions. She did say "no".

    Now for my contribution to the confusion:

    In "Broken Bow", when Trip and T'Pol were on the space station, she very specifically told him that humans should not interfere in other cultures - no matter how different they may seem (letting Klaang die to perserve his honor...the child being deprived of air by his mother so that he would learn to breath on his own).

    While there they passed a door where a female form was silohuetted (sp?). The woman was clearly being assaulted and was screaming "no". T'Pol was the one to say that it wasn't their business.

    While I would admit that it was most likely that B & B have forgotten THAT scene ever took place, I'll still put forth the theory that T'Pol may have felt some guilt over not having helped in that situation. She had been taught a certain way of work by the Vulcan High Command and had followed it in that situation. When it was she being assaulted the humans came to her rescue when her own people clearly would not. She would have to start questioning everything she believed in up to that point.
     
  7. Lady Conqueror

    Lady Conqueror Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2002
    Wichita - I agree T'Pol is a bit of a thrillseeker. She never would have left the compound in San Fransico if she wasn't, but I think Tolaris realised that pretty early on - after all, here she is on an Earth ship, for all intensive purposes, getting along very well (as far as he could see) with an all human crew (far longer than any other Vulcan) and even developing a sense of humour, trying Earth teas instead of sticking to Vulcan tea. She's an almost perfect target for manipulation.

    I like T'Prylla's idea that Tolaris may have been in the early stages of Pon Farr. That could put an interesting new spin on things (I need a pondering smilie :) ).

    I think I'm going to have to go and rewatch that scene from "Broken Bow" now though Wichita.
     
  8. Wichita

    Wichita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Over the Rainbow
    I meant to mention the Tolaris and Pon Far issue (and just forgot) - I thought it was a very interesting viewpoint as well. Archer, of course, would know nothing of it and T'Pol would not expect to be the target of Tolaris' interest since there was no bonding between them.

    I agree that Tolaris saw T'Pol as available for manipulation - but the question is what kind? Could he have wanted to simply gain another disciple for his political/sociological viewpoint and lost control? Was what he did a common method for his group to gain disciples? Was it his intent all along to take sexual advantage? So many questions and so few answers...
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Heh heh ... I think Tolaris is a punk. ;)
    [​IMG]
    ... T'Pring ... still queen of the Evil Bitch Vulcans. :p

    Heh heh... I think Spock put a scare into Ston at the end there... yeah you got her pal. Congradulations *walks way relieved*. :lol: There's always that woman in a guys past... lol! :D
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Thrill-seeking or curious. Is there a difference? One of the five personality factors is openness to experience. Early testing finds that individuals who score high on this factor make better diplomats and expatriate managers. Can you imagine an individual willing to live in a foreign country, work with people other than their race, etc. and unwilling to change any of their habits, lifestyle, beliefs, etc. Such an individual would not be very successful. T'Pol has said that Vulcans are not curious and curiosity has it's dangers, but where would we be if Franklin had not flown a kite or Columbus gone looking for the new world. These endeavors were equally risky. Were they thrill seekers?
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think that everyone's contribution to this thread has help to clarify what may have happened in this story. TO bad they weren't in the episode! Footnote would have been helpful or maybe pop ups!

    Abz
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ... pop-ups! That would be a big help! lol!!! It's a great idea for a future show too. ;)

    ... and T'Prylla makes great points about the motivations and character of the Vulcans and T'Pol in particular. We really need to know why she seems to either be a mental case or at least an 'adventurous'[/i] Vulcan.

    I was over at the TrekWeb site looking at an interview Braga did about Stigma.

    Soooo is Braga already apologizing? Why isn't he confident in the message here? Come to think of it, when other producers create sensitive issue stories (Philidelphia anyone?) I'm pretty sure the writers are confident they are sensitive to the issues.
    Ya don't say. Hmmm. I've accused this Stigma of having a very 1980s After School Special feel. A script from the 1980s you say? Hmm.
    Guess that got killed.
    :borg:
    FULL TEXT - TREKWEB.COM
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    FYI - Jolene Blalock said about Stigma: "They wanted to keep it along the lines of the actual disease," Blalock said. "A lot of people walking around right now have AIDS or the HIV virus, and you wouldn't know it. So the decision was made not to have me look sickly. That helps eliminate the sympathy factor, and I'm really happy about that. It's not about feeling sorry for T'Pol."
     
  14. voodoowoman

    voodoowoman Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    USA
    Thank you so much Plum! Please check out old and ancient star Trek novels by Diane Duane, Kathleen Skye, and Diane Carey. They all have a slightly differing approach to the matriarachal theme but they insist on a strong patriaarchal influence also. I adore Diane Duane's "The Romulan Way."
    I'm sorry but I felt sorry for poor Tolaris (until he attacked Archer) but yes the hormones were definitely getting to him. I've mentioned that they were striking out on their own as "melders" because Vulcan society could or would not accept them./
    After reading my matriarchy thread try to imagine the Vulcanoid males reaction to earth or other females who don't go into a chill for years at a time. NO wonder Sarek married two earth women and adored them. They will tear down the neutral zone with their boney bloody fingers to get to them.
    I think I know now why the zone was established and perhaps a big time motivation for the war.
    Remember Tasha Yar in TNG? Her daughter Sela, half Romulan casually tells Picard. "My father, the general, saw her and became enamoured with her". Love at first sight? He takes a prisoner of war and makes her the mother of his child who seems to endure no prejudice from her mixed parentage. I wrote a sequel to Tasha's life and really got into Romulus as a result.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ... aww shucks voodoowoman. :o And thanks for the book info... I've been wondering about Trek books. Especially older ones.

    And I love your Vulcan Matriarch thread. I think it's a great take on the Vulcans and is placed within continuity with real grace. I would like to add you to my list of story editors for ENT... you, Lady Conqueror, Witchita and... oh I'm forgeting someone... :D
     
  16. voodoowoman

    voodoowoman Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Location:
    USA
    EEEEEP! I'd be honored! What shall I edit? Oh my goodness!
    I need to go buy something new, perhaps a purse, or some new lipstick. I'm all in a flutter. Wait til you see my thread on the Vulcan and Romuland Patriarchies.
     
  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    ^^^ I'm there for that thread! :) And lol! ... you deserve it all! :)
     
  18. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm sorry I missed the rest of this thread discussion. Great points everyone and I'll be sure to check out the other thread mentioned. Wouldn't you know just when I decided to delurk and participate, one lightning strike takes out my computer. The good news is I have a new computer now. WHOO HOO! :D
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Great to hear from ya Mithrilbow! :)
     
  20. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Bump! ... for the U.K. viewers... :)