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Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


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I wonder if there was ever any chance, however remote, of Billie actually playing Leia for real.

I mean, recasting had long since been taken off the table, but you'd think that this might be the one instance of it that SW fans would accept.
 
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I would think if they were going to recast they would have gone with somebody close to Carrie Fisher, or Mark Hamill's age.
 
I don't see how. His plans were still foiled, the Death Star destroyed and he had to work his way back up again.

It's basically the story of the Hobbit moving in to Lord of the Rings.

I agree that ROTJ is a great ending to the story and for the longest time it was "The End" for me. But, the ST doesn't invalidate what story choices were made in ROTJ. It exposes the Sith philosophy in a way that really was only handled in the novels. They are forever trying to escape death and yet it constantly pursues them.

Palpatine's coming back is just a rather literal example of that.

The same can be asked of the Jedi. Why worry about if they die now?
A story is a story.. and taking away "the end" to simply extend that story and add a new "the end" can sometimes gut a story and have it lose its impact.

Even in individual films, the toughest shot-- the shot where we see what kind of guts a director has - is the last shot.. and simply adding more can gut the last shot, where it should end. It's also in line with the writers' philosophy with individual scenes that can apply to ending a film: get in as late as a possible and leave as quickly as you can"
 
I would think if they were going to recast they would have gone with somebody close to Carrie Fisher, or Mark Hamill's age.

Ordinarily, I would agree...but as I said, even though SW fans would (understandably) balk at the question of recasting Leia, Carrie's own daughter just might be the exception.
 
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A story is a story.. and taking away "the end" to simply extend that story and add a new "the end" can sometimes gut a story and have it lose its impact.

Even in individual films, the toughest shot-- the shot where we see what kind of guts a director has - is the last shot.. and simply adding more can gut the last shot, where it should end. It's also in line with the writers' philosophy with individual scenes that can apply to ending a film: get in as late as a possible and leave as quickly as you can"
I see the point. I don't agree at all. The ST has taken nothing away from the end of ROTJ for me. All the films are still highly enjoyable, entertaining and satisfying.

And, here's the clincher, even if they were not, I would just ignore them. This is the part that continually causes me confusion-if the ST is so damaging to the OT then please do not watch it. I stopped reading the books because they became patently ridiculous. Same truth holds sway here.
 
And I'll never understand the need to take digs at production teams. :shrug:
I very much take exception to that.
I'm not taking digs at the production team, I'm stating an opinion as to the extent to which the primary creative (JJ in this case) put thought into the reasoning behind a make-up effect design choice.
JJ has a history of doing things *only* because they look cool and damn the logic of it, so in this case it's an objective critique and not even REMOTELY personal. It casts no aspersions or makes any judgement against him as a person, just as a creative, which is entirely fair game.

Art isn't created in a vacuum. Movies don't just magically appear out of thin air. They're the result of many many people making many many decisions. But here, creative the buck stops with the director. Pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
Again, the thing that bugs me the most about Palpatine's resurrection is that it raises the question, does anyone ever truly DIE in the SW universe. It cheapens death, robs it of its meaning.

I mean, if Palpatine can return after being blown up in ROTJ, who's to say that he couldn't come back AGAIN after ROTS? Is he like the Borg, an unstoppable enemy?
The larger thematic problem is that it cheapens Anakin's sacrifice and cheapens his redemption.

Billie Lourde played Leia for the flashback scene with her and Luke training with their lightsabers.
I like that they did that, it's a nice way to let her take part in her mother's legacy.
If they ever recast Leia for a movie set around the time of The Original Trilogy, I could see Billie playing her without any digital help.
I think it at least had something to do with her having a similar enough facial structure to Carrie that the face replacement didn't suffer from the same uncanny valley disconnect as the Rogue One effect did. In that instance, the actress was a good body double, but her face didn't quite line up so well. Pretty sure the main problem was that both her mouth and eyes were set further apart than Carrie's were, making the final product have a weird dead-eyed stare and lips that didn't quite look like they were moving naturally.

It's basically the same reason why the de-aging effect Marvel has been using seems damn near flawless: the underlying facial structure is the same, so the performance capture translates to the mesh much more smoothly.

Oh and I wouldn't expect Billie to be playing Leia and I doubt she would want to. Carrie is Leia.
This is just like that time they had Harrison's son come in to help them fix a looping mis-match for Blade Runner's "Final Cut".
 
I very much take exception to that.
I'm not taking digs at the production team, I'm stating an opinion as to the extent to which the primary creative (JJ in this case) put thought into the reasoning behind a make-up effect design choice.
JJ has a history of doing things *only* because they look cool and damn the logic of it, so in this case it's an objective critique and not even REMOTELY personal. It casts no aspersions or makes any judgement against him as a person, just as a creative, which is entirely fair game.

Art isn't created in a vacuum. Movies don't just magically appear out of thin air. They're the result of many many people making many many decisions. But here, creative the buck stops with the director. Pretending otherwise is intellectually dishonest.
If I misunderstood then I apologize. When people say "they didn't put any thought in to it" it comes across as very mindless artistic choices, which I don't necessarily agree with in the process. I do agree that art isn't made in a vacuum, and that JJ is responsible. I just don't find it "thoughtless."
 
...and that says much about Kathleen Kennedy, et al., that in the PT, Lucas could create a little white boy who defined his plight as a slave, while in the ST--a series run by the most "socially progressive" people on earth (and they never let a moment pass by to remind everyone of that) Finn barely said a word about his background, or presented a valid reason (in between sweating spells) why he left the FO. We do not even have the sense of the FO doing anything of note to him that would inspire his need to flee. His greatest development was running, panting and being the Back Buffoon while every other main character had their own stories...and dignity.



In 1980, there were some movie-goers who held some resentment toward Lando for "betraying" Han and the others, ignoring that Vader did not give him a choice in the matter. Apparently, realistic character reactions soared right over their heads, since some thought Lando should have refused and/or made some stand. Yeah...they must have been asleep and missed the part about the Empire being this mighty force that even an opposing army was incapable of stopping.

Thankfully, that group was small in number, because Lando was treated as an instant hero by the majority.



Most audience members understood Lando had no choice the moment he told the others that Vader and Company arrived before they did. Its the Empire. Who was going to oppose that? His agreement was merely a formality to what that situation really was--a military takeover.

Thanks for your reply. I totally misunderstood where you were coming from when you were talking about opposition to Lando. Yes, I agree, within the story, I can see what you meant by some people being salty about Lando's actions. I look at it and how the character evolved as Lucas, Kasdan, etc. having fingers on the pulse of character development was lacking in the sequels or even in some of the other Disney Star Wars films (though I liked both Solo and Rogue One better than Episodes 7 and 8; I only put Episode 9 above Solo, but still Rogue One is my favorite of the Disney Star Wars films).

I hate to try to give Disney the benefit of the doubt on anything when it comes to Finn in Episode 7, however, I can imagine that they didn't explain why Finn left the First Order because the audience was supposed to grasp that they were evil (I mean they were the evil Galactic Empire in all but name) so therefore, with the seemingly simplistic black-and-white Star Wars worldview-with the First Order being evil, Finn rejected them because of conscience, because deep down he was good. I do wish we had gotten more complexity when it came to the First Order. (I'm not the biggest fan of Star Wars: Resistance, and have only watched Season 1 and the first episode of Season 2, but it seems like Disney is using that cartoon to show us more of the First Order side of things, even though it's too little, too late).

Though I will say Lucas also couldn't get past painting things in black and white either. I remember the Episode 3 scrawl said their were 'heroes on both sides' but he never depicted the Separatists doing anything heroic, so that made no sense. Though in one breath he could say the Republic was 'corrupt', we never saw much evidence of that either. When it comes to The Last Jedi, it was like Rian Johnson was toying with the idea of Grey Jedi or even there was some equivalency between the Resistance and the First Order in the Canto Bight scene, but he shies away from that later on when he has Ren fully turn to the dark side. Trying to depict moral complexity, ambiguity, has not been a strong point ever for this franchise (not counting books or comics here) it seems.

I would put even Lucas going back and changing that Han shot first in that as well. It was like Lucas couldn't hold in his head, or wanted kids who were watching to, that sometimes heroes could do bad things. This inability or unwillingness to show moral complexity really hurt when it came to the prequels and how Lucas depicted Anakin's fall. He didn't know how, or want to, depict a morally gray character so he first introduced us to Anakin as the most innocent of innocents (he even cut a scene that showed Anakin fighting another kid), and Lucas tried to create this great and tragic love story, to make Vader more of a tragic figure than the mass murdering villain we grew up with. It didn't quite work, though I still enjoyed a lot of Christensen's performance (more than Lloyd's).

You are right that we don't get why Finn broke from the First Order. Why did his conditioning break at just that moment? It can now be explained or retconned away as The Force was guiding him, but we should've gotten more answers much earlier in the sequels, and beyond just that some soldiers need reconditioning. And we don't see Finn spending much time wondering about any of that. He's fully into running away when he's not fixated on Rey. The sequels missed a great opportunity to have Finn be the audience surrogate not into the Resistance (Dameron could've done that) but into the First Order. We also don't see Finn going on his own search for identity. He just wants to run, but why not try to find his family? Not sure how young he was when he was taken but I wonder if he was old enough to remember any of them, or where he was taken from. Or if he would try to find out. But those things didn't matter to Disney ultimately, because Finn doesn't really matter. Despite the charm and energy that Boyega poured into his performance, Finn wasn't meant to be much or do much. And when I look at how poorly developed the other sequel heroes were, though they were generally afforded more dignity than Finn was (especially in Episode 7 and parts of Episode 8), Disney didn't put much stock into creating compelling characters. To be fair, again, Lucas had an issue doing likewise in the prequels, but what he had going for him was the nostalgia of the original trilogy which he didn't disrespect like Disney did IMO with the many of the original trilogy heroes. And though some of the prequel characters were wooden most had left stronger impressions. And watching Palpatine snake his way to power during the prequels was one of that series many saving graces. There's no performance like that in the sequels. And nothing thrilled like when Maul brought out the double lightsaber in Episode 1. The prequels had a lot of memorable moments, more than the sequels IMO.

Lucas had to connect the dots and show how some beloved original trilogy characters got their start, whereas Disney had the challenge of taking the story to another level, and they mostly decided to just tread water instead.
 
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That theory wouldn't explain the face though. Why clone himself with the same messed up face? And why would the real Palpatine with the messed up face in ROTS and TESB have a not so messed up face in TROS?

Agreed. There would be no reasonable point to that at all, but TROS just wanted to ring that bell of "BOO! Look fans! Its Palpatine again! Wee!" without any sense to their "story".

idk Return of the Jedi was a great ending to the story. And Palpatine in that movie had a plan.. and the way he was beaten plays into the themes of the story.

Exactly. Lucas was wise to remember that when producing the PT by having that era of Palpatine overconfident in his powers and vision, so by the end of the PT, the audience can understand why he's so arrogant / assured he could turn Luke in ROTJ, only for that to steadily blow up in his face once Luke arrived on the second Death Star. It was a solid set up.

Him having forseen his own demise is a pipsqueek's excuse for the sequel they made and it undermines what was accomplished.

Well said.
 
Saw it a second time this evening. Some new questions/observations I had:
  1. Trees on Mustafar are, logically, burnt to a crisp (were they ever trees?).
  2. If C3P0 read and understood the directions to Exogol but can't translate them, couldn't they just have asked him to pilot them there without saying anything?
  3. Why does Kylo / Ben, who is one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy and can pull a troop carrier out of the air, get the shit beaten out of him routinely? (this is the second movie where that happens)
  4. Why are flashback Luke and Leia the wrong age? They seem to be ESB-era, not post-ROTJ.
  5. I thought a more apt ending to the movie should have been:
    OLD WOMAN: What is your name?
    REY: It's Rey.... Rey Palpatine!
    FORCE LIGHTNINGS THE WOMAN AWAY.
    Ok, maybe not.
 
I had thought it was pretty clear that Finn freaked out when he saw his friend killed, and then couldn't handle all the villagers being massacred, that was enough for me.
Yeah, "Finn is force sensitive" seems like an answer to a question nobody asked, and they didn't even answer it so much as allude to it without fully committing. One of several half-baked concepts this movie just throws at the audience "just coz".
Why are flashback Luke and Leia the wrong age? They seem to be ESB-era, not post-ROTJ.
Supposedly it's within a year of RotJ, so it works fine.
 
I had thought it was pretty clear that Finn freaked out when he saw his friend killed, and then couldn't handle all the villagers being massacred, that was enough for me.

To be fair, I would need to look at the movie again to remember that part about the friend. I really didn't enjoy the movie and have not wanted to retain much of it in my memory. That being said, there is still the question of why Finn? Why did he freak out? Why couldn't he handle all the villagers being killed, unlike the others? It speaks to Finn's conscience, compassion, and empathy, but from another point of view, it also displays how Finn couldn't cut it as a soldier either. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing (I mean Han wasn't a great soldier either in Solo and Han wanted out of Imperial service, but he wasn't just about running away either. He ran toward something, even if it was criminal, and he did so to get back to Qi'ra. His journey to getting out of the Imperial Army was better explained, and it didn't need an hour to do it, just a few lines of dialogue in a handful of scenes).

When I look at how Finn was portrayed in the rest of Force Awakens, stumbling and bumbling, panting and sweating, and not too great at anything (unless the script suddenly needed him to be), so that his skills felt more organic to the character, then I see his turn away from the First Order as not just one of conscience but also one of failure. He couldn't make it as a soldier, he didn't want to be in the Resistance, all he cared about was running away and Rey. I wanted more from this character, give me more reasoning for why or how he came to those decisions if nothing else.
 
I thought both Luke and Leia looked the way they did in ROTJ. Considering that it wasn't all that long ago that CGI facial recreations would have stood out like looking at Max Headroom this was pretty exceptional work. We've come a very long way just in the past decade.
 
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