Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[T'Bonz]

Oh, jeez, already. Forget the friggin' romance. Can't a woman be a major character without having to hook up with a man?

 

[fireproof78]

The difference here is that Rey is not purposely removing herself from relationships like Obi-Wan or Luke. She's the other side of the traditional fairy tale coin in being a heroine who also can find romance.

So? Must every fairy tale trope be checked off?

Its pointless as it comes off as a line inserted into the crawl of ROTS, yet is never seen in the actual film--not to any degree. Where are the "heroes" on the side represented by Sidious, Dooku, Greivous, or the Trade Federation? It did not exist, because Lucas did not intend for there to be shadings of gray (which would be the opposite of his reason for drawing clear ideas of good and evil in creating Star Wars in the post anti-hero / disillusioned films released in the ten years before Star Wars hit screens).

Yes, Lucas did intend for shades of gray, with a good guy becoming bad and the bad guy actually having a point.

I did not discount TMP. I noted it was produced in the 20th century, with the rest of the PT in the 21st, as a matter of chronological accuracy. That does not alter what I posted days ago:

Fair enough. I misread it.

The PT is not some radical course change from how Lucas followed the traditional myth motifs, for the logical reason that in-universe, the PT had to naturally lead into the OT, with its very clear myth traditions from start to finish. The sequel trilogy is the one which clearly goes off track. Like the days of the Expanded Universe, if there are characters and/or stories that need to go in its own direction, then its best to create its own series independent of the Skywalker story.

The PT, especially TPM and AOTC, diverts far more than you give it credit for, but we are no so far removed from its novelty to not appreciate it.

"Throwing away" career and other duties for love is not only one of the longest lived plot devices in literature/cultural myths, but its real world counterpart predates that. You seem to be suggesting that her life was her career/duties--as if that is what she should value above all else. A life without love (the most natural of human desires) is not living at all, particularly if one consciously shunts it aside all for a career, or the alleged value of duties.

She did value it above all else until Anakin came along. It didn't feel natural. It felt forced.

Tragic romance in fairy tales have players who make their own decisions; in SW, the will of the Force directs certain events, but all characters have free will to do--or not do--the things that point their lives in a certain direction. Padme being a player in a tragic romance does not remove her responsibility in all that happens, despite the Force being pushed out of balance, and attempting to correct that through the Skywalker children. Knowing Padme made her own decisions gives her plight some weight, as she was fighting to right all that went wrong until her last breath.

And yet, it doesn't feel like it in the text.

As I've observed not only on TrekBBS, but elsewhere, some create a universe of excuses why Finn and Rey should not be together...excuses that do not hold up to questioning, which usually leaves one time-honored sickness as the true reason for the never-ending resistance to the idea.

That argument proceeds from false assumption and concludes in error.

Yes--a homicidal dictator or a guy she barely knows...instead of the one character that naturally bonded with her not only as a friend, but--if you look at her expression as Finn is pulling the sheet on Rose / her message to Chewbacca which (despite no on-screen translation) would not be retreading a message of a friendship both she and Finn already know exists. Nope--that's all buried with one Poe scene and fantasies that Rey will "save" Ren in time for the two to become an item.

And that's a load of garbage. People ship all characters, from Frodo/Thorin, to Princess Peach and Master Chief. It's not "buried." It's barely registered and we haven't seen the conclusion of the film! Yet, the assumptions abound...absurd.

Also, why can't they just be friends? Why most Rey be in a romance? Why must any of them?

Oh, jeez, already. Forget the friggin' romance. Can't a woman be a major character without having to hook up with a man?

THANK YOU!

 

[Trekkin]

So? Must every fairy tale trope be checked off?

I could live with that. I mean, considering what tends to happen to the female characters in Hans Christian Andersen’s fairy tales?

Feet hacked off with an axe. Rape. Literally being dragged to hell. Freezing to death. Set on fire. Suicide. Eternal damnation... Old Hans wasn’t exactly big on the romance and earthly happy-ever-afters.

(The only real exceptions I can think of are Gerda, The Princess and the Pea, and the nameless princess in The Tinder Box. The first one’s ‘romance’ is debatable. The second has the woman literally ‘earning’ a prince through endless complaining, and being the only other royalty on the continent. The third is kidnapped by a serial killer, who weds her after murdering her family and usurping their throne.)

Seeing all that shit in Star Wars would certainly be interesting. And that’s not touching on the Bros Grimm!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's pretty clear that Rey thought she was following in Luke's footsteps, that she sensed some good in Kylo and just as with Luke did with Vader (who was *waaaay* more far gone and evil than Kylo), she thought she could bring him back over to the light. She was wrong. Her intentions were good, but she let her need for kinship and guidance cloud her judgement.

This.

 

[LJones41]

This.

She never stopped to wonder if Kylo Ren was setting a trap or anything similar . . . considering that he had attempted to violate her mind just a FEW DAYS EARLIER in order to discover Luke's whereabouts? Rey must have been incredibly stupid.

If Finn and Rose were able to slip away from Leia's command ship undetected by the Resistance or the First Order on a transport ship, why couldn't the surviving members of the Resistance have done the same in small groups . . . EARLIER IN THE FILM?

 

[fireproof78]

She never stopped to wonder if Kylo Ren was setting a trap or anything similar . . . considering that he had attempted to violate her mind just a FEW DAYS EARLIER in order to discover Luke's whereabouts? Rey must have been incredibly stupid.

And Luke tried to save the guy who cut off his hand and enslaved most of the galaxy.

Luke must be incredibly stupid.

If Finn and Rose were able to slip away from Leia's command ship undetected by the Resistance or the First Order on a transport ship, why couldn't the surviving members of the Resistance have done the same in small groups . . . EARLIER IN THE FILM?

Larger ships-larger signatures. Poe had to run interference for the Resistance not to detect it.

 

[JD]

I don't understand why Rey & Finn have to be a romance? Is it really so inconceivable for a young man and woman to just be friends?

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I don't understand why Rey & Finn have to be a romance? Is it really so inconceivable for a young man and woman to just be friends?

Rey and Finn? Wasn't Rose introduced/inserted to give Finn a love interest? As clumsy as that was executed.

No. I think they'll be hooking up Poe and Rey for sure!

 

[crookeddy]

https://twitter.com/botnikstudios/status/942911487244406786

Here we have some autogenerated TLJ reviews.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't understand why Rey & Finn have to be a romance? Is it really so inconceivable for a young man and woman to just be friends?

Same here. This is all wrapped up in racist, mythological trope, Star Wars has always done this, nonsense.

Stories evolve and change. The idea that every female in a story must, MUST, be hitched by the end of the tale is a trope that needs to change. Period. Because, a person shouldn't be defined by their romantic interest in a story. They should be on a journey of their own, and that includes Finn, Poe, Rey, Rose and Kylo. If that journey includes romance? That's fine. But, these characters are still finding their place in the galaxy, Rey and Finn especially. It's rather poor psychology to insist that they must get together when they are still finding themselves.

 

[marillion]

Ok... So maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, bringing up TPT, but isn't it established that Jedi are not to fall in love and get married and have families? Isn't that why Anakin and Padme had to hide their romance? And then what happened bore out exactly WHY Jedi should never do that.. Their feelings and emotions outweigh the force. Anakin's love for Padme was the straw that broke the bantha's back and ushered in his transition to the Dark Side.

I know that in the EU, Luke gets married to someone and has kids and such, but not in this universe... Ok, so out with the old and in with the new, when it comes to the Jedi and Rey will be able to craft things how she sees them and how she interprets the texts... But still... I don't think there will be any shipping involving Rey.. Nor does there need to be.

 

[Prax]

Yes, Jedi romances almost always cause disasters.

but....what does it matter if people "ship" different characters?? These aren't real people we're talking about. They exist in imaginations to begin with. No conversation here is going to influence what happens in future films.

 

[LJones41]

Why most Rey be in a romance? Why must any of them?

I can see why you feel that way, considering that the only three potential mates for Rey is a guy played by a black actor, another guy played by a Latino actor, and the white guy who almost tried to mind rape her.

I don't understand why Rey & Finn have to be a romance? Is it really so inconceivable for a young man and woman to just be friends?

Would you feel this way if Finn had been portrayed by a white actor?

Why not question the idea of Leia becoming romantically involved with someone? Oh right. Han was played by a white actor.

Isn't that why Anakin and Padme had to hide their romance? And then what happened bore out exactly WHY Jedi should never do that.. Their feelings and emotions outweigh the force. Anakin's love for Padme was the straw that broke the bantha's back and ushered in his transition to the Dark Side.

If that's the case, then NO ONE in the entire Star Wars saga should not have been emotionally involved with someone. Or . . . they should have been emotionally involved with blood relatives or a religious organization.

 

[fireproof78]

I can see why you feel that way, considering that the only three potential mates for Rey is a guy played by a black actor, another guy played by a Latino actor, and the white guy who almost tried to mind rape her.

You are assuming from error.

Would you feel this way if Finn had been portrayed by a white actor?

Why not question the idea of Leia becoming romantically involved with someone? Oh right. Han was played by a white actor.

For the record, the romance between Han and Leia is the part I skip while watching TESB. I would rather it not be a part of the saga...period.

If that's the case, then NO ONE in the entire Star Wars saga should not have been emotionally involved with someone. Or . . . they should have been emotionally involved with blood relatives or a religious organization.

There is a difference between romance and emotional involvement. Study Plato.

Oh, and Star Wars had incest. It was fun:

 

[Trekkin]

considering that the only three potential mates for Rey is a guy played by a black actor, another guy played by a Latino actor, and the white guy who almost tried to mind rape her.

Those aren’t the only possible love interests for Rey. Putting aside the obvious and oblivious heteronormativity for a moment, everything to do with Rey is fictional. There is no ‘only’.

With one stroke of a pen(keyboard), she could be revealed to have an entire Gungan harem that have been hanging off screen the entire time. She might meet up with Benicio del Toro for a quickie and an ass-kicking. She could end the series by marrying the surprisingly alive Captain Typho. Etcetcetc...

And, oh god, ‘potential mates.’ That sure makes the possibility of any romance/sexual relationships look appealing. And it certainly doesn’t imply any views about women and sexual relationships. Noooo.

(Also: taking a word primarily ascribed to beasts and applying it to a list of mostly non-Caucasian men, could also be considered somewhat of an...unfortunate cliche. Considering you seem to want to discuss implied racism, the ‘hidden’ motivations of other posters, and all.)

 

[Reverend]

Ok... So maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here, bringing up TPT, but isn't it established that Jedi are not to fall in love and get married and have families?

Not explicitly, I don't think. So far as I understand it, it's only personal attachments and possession that are forbidden. Indeed, Anakin & Padme have exactly this discussion in AotC. The basic idea is not to prohibit love so much as to prohibit playing favourites. To be a Jedi is to serve life, with equal love and compassion for all, not just the people that they happen to like.

Of course if any Jedi doesn't like this, they're free to leave the Order anytime they wish and go live whatever kind of life they want for themselves; they're not forced to do, or in this case *not* do anything against their will.

 

[F. King Daniel]

https://twitter.com/botnikstudios/status/942911487244406786

Here we have some autogenerated TLJ reviews.

That reads pretty much like angry fan reviews of everything

 

[fireproof78]

That reads pretty much like angry fan reviews of everything

Is it like writing an essay on a subject and you want to use all the buzz words to impress the teacher?

 

[indranee]

In the end, they will go for a love story. We all know this. And, in the end, they will go with the one guy (or girl) with whom Rey/Daisy Ridley has the most chemistry on screen. ROMANTIC CHEMISTRY.

For now, the only one she has that with is Kylo Ren/Adam Driver.

I really like John Boyega. He's a fantastic find, and he and Daisy Ridley have a very natural, easy and fun flavor between them, but Finn has pretty much been friend-zoned, and Poe... Poe is yet to be written into a chemistry-laden interaction. Yes, chemistry can be written and directed and edited other than whatever chemical stuff happens between two actors on camera.

I don't have a problem with Rey being in a romance as long as the character is strong, and viable in terms of her own agency. I also don't care if the romance is with another character who is the villain and did villainish things to her in the story. That's never stopped the classics from putting two characters together in a very viable and watchable/readable romance. I don't do politically correct narratives and romances anyway. If they can WRITE and ACT the romantic tension well and resolve it well with an interesting end (and that CAN and MIGHT mean that Kylo Ren is redeemed AND dies), I'm all good. Adam Driver and Daisy Ridley have off-the-charts chemistry on screen... so that's pretty doable.

What I don't want is a generic romance for the sake of having Rey in a romantic relationship. THAT is a problem with me. Poe fits that generic romance angle. So, no, I'm not interested in a Rey/Poe romance. Even written well, it'll be boring as hell.

 

[fireproof78]

In the end, they will go for a love story. We all know this. And, in the end, they will go with the one guy (or girl) with whom Rey/Daisy Ridley has the most chemistry on screen. ROMANTIC CHEMISTRY.

Rey and Finn have that potential.

The problem is, as Rey is currently at in her journey (and largely Finn too) they are both finding their identity. They are midway through that process. I feel it is unnecessary for her, Kylo, or Finn to be in a relationship when their journey is one of self-discovery, purpose and meaning.