Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[Mage]

Since people have been ranking the movies, how I'd rank them right now (although TLJ will probably go up when I've watched it more, and only the last two movies on the list do I consider bad, the rest rank from good to amazing).

1. ESB
2. TFA
3. A New Hope
4. ROTJ
5. TLJ
6. Rogue One
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

I can sorta see myself in that list, but I think I would swap ROTJ and ANW. As much as ANH is the Classic start of it all, I feel it's a flawed movie in terms of editing and pacing. Actually, put ANH below R1 I think.... Then it's pretty much how I'd rank them.
For now...... I'm fickle like that.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I wanted to wait until I saw The Last Jedi a second time before I did a ranking, but now that I have...

1. A New Hope
2. The Last Jedi
3. Rogue One
4. The Empire Strikes Back
5. The Force Awakens
6. Return of the Jedi
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
7. Revenge of the Sith
8. The Phantom Menace
9. Attack of the Clones

 

[kirk55555]

I can sorta see myself in that list, but I think I would swap ROTJ and ANW. As much as ANH is the Classic start of it all, I feel it's a flawed movie in terms of editing and pacing. Actually, put ANH below R1 I think.... Then it's pretty much how I'd rank them.
For now...... I'm fickle like that.

I almost did put RotJ over ANH. I'm weird in that I've always liked RotJ a lot, and the ewoks never bothered me. It really depends on my mood.

 

[USS Firefly]

My ranking would be

ESB
ROTS
RO
ANH
ROTJ
TPM
AOTC
TFA
TLJ

 

[USS Firefly]

I almost did put RotJ over ANH. I'm weird in that I've always liked RotJ a lot, and the ewoks never bothered me. It really depends on my mood.

I have the same problem some times

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I almost did put RotJ over ANH. I'm weird in that I've always liked RotJ a lot, and the ewoks never bothered me. It really depends on my mood.

I've always enjoyed the Ewoks, so I'm always amused by how much fans whinge about them (likewise the Porgs). Probably helps that my first exposure to Star Wars was the animated Ewoks series as a kid.

 

[Venardhi]

ESB
ANH
ROTJ
TFA
TLJ
R1
TPM*
AOTC*
ROTS*

*Honestly it is almost impossible for me to rank these films at this point since I haven't seen any of them in a decade or so and I have so little interest in ever watching them again.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

*Honestly it is almost impossible for me to rank these films at this point since I haven't seen any of them in a decade or so and I have so little interest in ever watching them again.

Same here. I watched Revenge of the Sith prior to the release of The Force Awakens as part of my marathon, on the idea that maybe it would stand on its own as as singular prequel to the Original Trilogy, but I was wrong. Aside from the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel and Anakin/Palpatine conversation in the Senate, most of the film is dreck, from the horrible dialogue and overreliance on CGI and green screens to the lame means of Padme's death and the otherwise waste of her character (essentially sitting around and whining about Anakin).

I haven't seen the other two since they were in the cinema, which was true for Revenge of the Sith until that aforementioned viewing.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

2. No it doesn’t. They exist to establish Vader’s Force choke, and as a prop for Tarkin’s exposition. The ‘divisions’ aren’t presented as a threat to anything, and ends before the scene itself concludes. We certainly don’t get any reveals into the Empire’s hierarchy from that scene. It remains a nice broad Emperor->Tarkin->Everyone else.

Incorrect. Any division of purpose among the top of any military body suggests there are potential larger problems ahead, which is presented in the form of Admiral Motti's open disrespect of Vader, and Vader himself "reminding" him (and by extent, everyone else in the room) that he was not to be underestimated. In other words, there were problems in the Imperial hierarchy serving on the Death Star.

In ANH and the trilogy as a whole, the scene and it’s characters could be completely removed with no effect on the plot whatsoever.

The scene established Tarkin as a leader and his ambitions. Needless to say, it also added another layer of the supernatural to Vader, which lends itself to what everyone knew was a coming confrontation with Kenobi.

3. What’s Chewie’s grand narrative purpose? I know what his purpose is (adds flavour to the setting, give Han someone to exposit to when he’s story-obliged to ‘let’s split up gang’, and as comic relief), but I’m curious how you explain why he has to be there.

It was obvious he was there to serve as Han's character-building sounding board and conscience, with light comic relief. This is not news to anyone.

4. If we’re counting ‘exposits about the bad guys weapons and simply sets up the political situation’ as ‘narratively important’, then Rose more than justifies her existence.

You just don’t appear to like that, unlike Tarkin the genocidal fascist from ANH, Rose does so in the context of complaining that power was removed from legitimate governing bodies and given to a bunch of murdering arseholes

Sigh.

You have Finn (remember him?) with his choice to leave the First Order to act as that particular voice. Of all sequel film characters, there's no one in a better position to explain it than an actual, former member of the murdering arsehole government, who--after his TFA experiences--knows both sides. So, anything you claim made Rose relevant naturally fits with Finn, but he was utterly marginalized as a clown sidekick (when he's part of this series' "trinity" of heroes), had no growth, and was forced into a last second, nonexistent "romance" instead of picking up where he left off with Rey--the only characters of this series who ever displayed romantic interest in each other.

You’re treating Rose like a supporting character. Like her actions must buffer whatever some main character has going on. For eg. The dude who tells Tarkin to evacuate, prompts the reveal of Tarkin’s hubris.

She is a supporting character. Aside from the OT veterans, the main characters of this series are supposed to be Rey, Finn and Poe, similar to Luke, Leia & Han from the OT, and Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme from the PT. That's the SW pattern. Ahh, but Finn was booted to the sidekick of a supporting character, and apparently, that was fine.

 

[{ Emilia }]

You have Finn (remember him?) with his choice to leave the First Order to act as that particular voice. Of all sequel film characters, there's no one in a better position to explain it than an actual, former member of the murdering arsehole government, who--after his TFA experiences--knows both sides. So, anything you claim made Rose relevant naturally fits with Finn, but he was utterly marginalized as a clown sidekick (when he's part of this series' "trinity" of heroes), had no growth, and was forced into a last second, nonexistent "romance" instead of picking up where he left off with Rey--the only characters of this series who ever displayed romantic interest in each other.

There was no romantic interest. They mean a lot to each other because they're friends. None of the two had real friends before it seems. Friends who don't leave the other behind. That is why they connect. They both have a history of being alone and now they can be there for each other, as friends.

Regarding his storyline, I'll steal this (@Mach5 linked it first):

 

[Kelthaz]

Alright, I can't pass up a good ranking.

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Force Awakens
5. Revenge of the Sith
6. Rogue One
7. The Phantom Menace
8. The Last Jedi
9. Attack of the Clones
10. Clone Wars (film)

 

[TremblingBluStar]

There was no romantic interest. They mean a lot to each other because they're friends. None of the two had real friends before it seems. Friends who don't leave the other behind. That is why they connect. They both have a history of being alone and now they can be there for each other, as friends.

Regarding his storyline, I'll steal this (@Mach5 linked it first):

I think he's reading way too much into an aspect of the script that shouldn't require a person from Twitter to point out to a large number of people. Calling the planet a perfect caricature of everything wrong in the world is just as naive and lacking in understanding the world as the scene itself.

 

[Reverend]

There was no romantic interest. They mean a lot to each other because they're friends. None of the two had real friends before it seems. Friends who don't leave the other behind. That is why they connect. They both have a history of being alone and now they can be there for each other, as friends.

Regarding his storyline, I'll steal this (@Mach5 linked it first):

I don't disagree with a single word of this. The themes and character motivations of that section of the movie are all 100% consistent and on point and I appreciate a good Cliff Richard/Young One reference as much as the next person.
The only element that still bugs me even after two viewings is that pretext/plot mechanical that propels Finn & Rose's story felt a little too contrived. I know that's very subjective and possibly me being way too finicky, but I can't help but feel that could have been finessed or at least simplified a bit more.

Generally speaking, simple plots have always been a strength in Star Wars movies and historically it's been when things get a little too complicated or unfocused (see: AotC) that it tends to start to become somewhat unglued.

 

[Kelthaz]

There was no romantic interest. They mean a lot to each other because they're friends. None of the two had real friends before it seems. Friends who don't leave the other behind. That is why they connect. They both have a history of being alone and now they can be there for each other, as friends.

Regarding his storyline, I'll steal this (@Mach5 linked it first):

You're saying that the Casino World subplot was to show Finn growing from someone who only cares about himself and his friends to someone who cares about the bigger picture and that cements his place in the Rebellion? I just don't see that interpretation in the film. Finn doesn't behave any differently in TLJ than he does in TFA. You could argue that Finn trying to kamikaze the battering ram was him trying to save the Rebellion, but I could just as easily argue that he was doing that to save Rey and Poe.

And, even if the Casino World subplot had resulted in character growth for Finn equal to 5 years of Babylon 5 for Londo, I would still argue that it was a waste of 40 minutes. It should have been better integrated into the main plot of the film. It felt like a side quest you get in an RPG. Sure, we could go beat up Lavos and save the world, but we need to give Frog some closure by finding Cyrus' grave. That just doesn't work in a film.

 

[Noname Given]

Apparently I'm officially a big fan of this new "Sequel Trilogy".

Here's my ranking as of now:

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. TFA
4. TLJ
5. ROTJ
6. TPM
7. ROTS
8. AOTC
9. R1

Mine:
1) STAR WARS (the original with NO "Episode IV: A NEW HOPE" or the other edits GL made even back in the day after he added the "A NEW HOPE" title to the scroll. And the 1997 "Special Edition" is crap - period.)

2) ESB

3) Rogue One

4) TPM (Loved the Darth Maul fight at the end - the rest not so much)

5)TFA

6)ROTJ (Hated the Ewoks though and the Storm Troopers should have had zero trouble VS Bows, Arrows and Rocks.)

7)AoTC

8)TLJ

9)RoTS (Darth Vader screaming "NOOO!" - my response to that: "NOOOOO! Why turn Vader into a whiny little bitch?)

 

[theenglish]

I am really enjoying this thread. This movie has generated a lot of interesting discussion. I love almost all of the Star Wars movies, well ranking the PT well below the other movies. All of the movies have their flaws and I don't see TLJ as being any more flawed than much of the series. I love how the movie surprised me and I love how it took Luke's character forward in a direction I had not anticipated. I agree with the poster above who stated that Luke found his own unique solution to the situation and, as he did in ROTJ, took the brains over brawn approach. I also appreciate how the movie brought back the original idea of the Force being used for good in a non-violent manner, leaving the violence to the Sith. People often forget that is how the good side of the force was originally portrayed, for defense when necessary but not for "attack".

I also think that people are forgetting the final lines of the film. Leia and Rey both state that Luke's presence has left but it left with a great sense of purpose. As Obi Wan stated in ANH, he will become far powerful than Darth Vader could ever imagine. I don't subscribe to Luke has died, but rather that he has moved on to a new plane of existence, the force ghost or whatever. But he has moved on with a purpose, a goal yet to be accomplished.

As for my movie rankings, I have always disagreed with the majority of fans.

1. ROTJ (Ewoks and ending song and everything)
2. ESB
3. TLJ
4. ANH
5. R1
6. TFA
7. ROTS
8. PM
9. AOTC

 

[Trekkin]

You have Finn (remember him?) with his choice to leave the First Order to act as that particular voice. Of all sequel film characters, there's no one in a better position to explain it than an actual, former member of the murdering arsehole government, who--after his TFA experiences--knows both sides.

What would Finn know about the civilian side of things? Because you just gave a pretty good description of how his would be completely different.

As to Tarkin, everything you described as the scene ‘revealing’ about his characterisation had already been established in his scenes with Leia and Vader.

And the supposed ‘correction’ about the bickering between officers didn’t actually address anything I said, did it? In the Star Wars movies, the entire content of that scene affects nothing else in the plot. The conflict goes nowhere. It could be cut completely, and change nothing.

How it ‘really’ would work in the military has exactly jack to do with squat.

 

[Booji]

1. ESB
2. ANH
3. ROTJ
4. TLJ
5. R1
6. ROTS
7. TFA
8. AOTC
9. TPM

 

[Qonundrum]

I've always enjoyed the Ewoks, so I'm always amused by how much fans whinge about them (likewise the Porgs). Probably helps that my first exposure to Star Wars was the animated Ewoks series as a kid.

My first SW experience was with the Ewoks as well... What feels like a zillion years later, I still dislike the walking toilet paper brand mascots and what Lucas modeled them after - and you know they're just waiting to be used in place of the bears in the Charmin adverts if Disney can work out a merchandising deal - but the Porgs were completely out of left field. Yes, I am in the camp of "hate one love the other", if that is truly possible. The first thing the walking nuggets do is something they probably shouldn't - especially as the writer has Chewie chewing on one in the most in-your-face way on one all while terrorizing the rest... that's warped, but hysterical at the same time. And later they befriend him because they were nice enough to forgive him so they all move forward as allies. I wonder how they accomplished that. (The Force is in all things...? ) For a SW film, that's pretty big as a metaphor to show walking action figures being eaten by a larger action figure... Now if only McDonalds would put out a playset with 5" Chewie, a couple of to-scale Porgs (so not for kiddies 3 and under), and a BBQ spit prop with freshly plucked Porg and you know they'd have people lined up around street corners, even in this -37C weather like yesterday...

Okay, I've been a Star Wars fan since the age of 2 or 3. I saw RTOJ in the cinema aged 4 and I had seen ANH and Empire numerous times on Betamax before that.

After seeing TLJ on the opening night, I left the cinema very disappointed and frustrated at this mess Rian Johnson has made. With massive plot holes it ruined both characters from both the OT, ST and wasted the ground work that TFA had set up.

So here are the parts of TLJ I had issue with.

Every movie is going to have at least one plot hole somewhere. Doesn't wreck a movie unless there are few or no redeeming values elsewhere...

1. The exchange between Poe and Hux, the first cringworthy attempt of humour in this film. Works fine for a comedy but wasn't needed.

It took me a moment to figure out "Oh, they're lampooning a 'can you hear me now' cell phone commercial" combined with Bart Simpson prank. It ultimately got a chuckle out of me, despite in the back of my mind knowing it feels a bit too modern-day as opposed to a galaxy far far away.

2. Luke chucking his lightsaber over his shoulder, WTF! An attempt at a cheap laugh and it completely ruins the ending of TFA for me. They could have at least have had Luke acknowledge it then throw it back in Ray's face, this would have had the same affect without looking silly.

IMHO, his chucking it fits in with his cynicism that he eventually has to overcome. Even when he finally acquiesces, he boguses her training. I see your point, it would work that way as well.

3. Leia flying through space like Mary Poppins, I can't describe how much I hate this part.

You Are Not Alone. Easily the worst part in the movie. Maybe Rian was aiming to confuse viewers as people were thinking she'd be killed off in this one because Ren already offed Han. Not sure...

4. The Maz Kanata scene, ridiculous and looked more like a video game! What a waste of what could have been a great character, sadly not the last time this happens in TLJ.

She didn't have much going on in TFA either - apart from somehow getting a hold of Luke's blue light saber for no reason, for which many in the audience was asking about the hand that was attached to it at one point...

5. I didn't enjoy the plot with Finn and Rose on Canto Bight, it was pointless, weak, didn't make the most of the characters and wasted the potential of DJ. Seemed like Rian Johnson was just filling time.

DJ was a cool addition but, yeah, not fully used. Nice to see the good guys spit the B-word at him. The plot may be iffy at times but they chose great actors.

6. The death of Snoke, I didn't mind that so much but there were no answers to who he was and because of this it didn't really have any impact on me.

Agreed. He's back, still looks like a piece of something hanging in a butcher's meat locker. Apes half the lines the Emperor had in ROTJ, but feels completely hollow. Thankfully Ren is a more rounded character.

7. Wasted the use of Phasma again, even more so than in TFA.

She returns for no explained reason and is killed off rather more definitively this time. No doubt she'll make a return, for which Finn will say "So you escaped from the fire" or something equally runaround and throwaway...

8. BB8 controlling an AT-ST, reminded me of George Lucas going overboard in the Prequels.

Yeah but don't you want to buy the inevitable action figures to recreate the movie scenes, only without anywhere near the same budget?

9. Luke's death pissed me off, I would have like to have seen him survive the new trilogy. Do we really have to kill off all the Legacy characters in order for the new characters to thrive?

Harrison Ford wanted Han to die as far back as 1980. So that one's not the same thing. My interpretation of the movie was Luke had crawled away and hid and needed help to find his way. He then uses everything he's got to help and it burns him out, hence his dying. Which almost seems a contradiction to how Leia can revive magically in outer space and fly around like Mary Poppings only without the umbrella.

When TFA came out I felt like a kid again, it felt like the Star Wars I grew up with. Yes it wasn't perfect and it was basically a reboot of ANH but I didn't care. I loved it, went to see it twice at the cinema, bought the Blu-Ray the day it came out and have watched it numerous times. I understand the criticism that JJ Abrams took for playing it safe but with TLJ it feels like Rian Johnson has done the opposite to the extreme, going out of his way to plot twist and shock to the detriment of the story and this didn't feel like Star Wars for me to the point that I wouldn't be bothered if I didn't watch this again. I will of course buy the Blu-ray when it comes out but I won't be rushing to buy it.

Ironic, it's a 180 for me. I have TFA on blu but only have it for the extras. TLJ has deeper themes, of which some are original, or are cynical, and yet are just as relevant to the themes of good vs evil that SW is known for. Rian taking more risks with TLJ expands the universe, which will make life safer for sequels but not in such an overt way.

The only saving grace for me was that the actors were exceptional, especially Mark Hamill and I really hope he makes some kind of return in Episode 9. But to be honest, I think Rian Johnson has ruined so many great characters both Legacy and new trilogy that I don't hold out much hope for Episode 9.

Ditto. Like might be only a Force Ghost but there's still much a Force Ghost can offer. I'm not sure how they'd do a fake-out, Star Wars has no teleportation technology to justify his disappearing.

I'm now praying for the film I didn't really want, Han Solo. I hope this delivers as this is the biggest risk Disney is taking with Star Wars!

The film will have much to do, including outright ignoring Lucas' special edition where Han was changed from a gruff rogue into "shoots in self defense only" despite ET and other movies and shows having people recreate "Han shot first, Han was the only one who fired".

And the other question being why, since Rogue One filled a reasonable gap (how the Rebel Alliance got their hands on the plans to begin with.) What do people need to know about Han's past, apart from what was inferred in the 1977 original or the 1997 Special Edition with restored footage making Jabba look less menacing than ever. Yes, there's the bit in TESB with Lando discussing something from their past but is it really going to be that compelling or important? Unless they show post-ROTJ Han and Leia getting busy on Hotel Kashyyyk having borrowed Chewie's bungalow to make bouncing baby bunting Kylo-- eh, is that really worth sitting through?

 

[Gepard]

Here's mine:

ESB
TLJ
ANH
AOTC
R1
ROTS
ROTJ
TPM
TFA

It seems I value novelty above all in my Star Wars, whether it's pushing characters in new directions or just, like the prequels, showing off crazy designs and tech I couldn't have imagined. The more derivative the content/presentation is, the less I liked it.