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Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

Contrary to what he might say, Kurtz was just along for the ride. His only contribution to Star Wars or the movies he produced was getting them wildly overbudget. This is a guy who thought Lucas should have made Raiders of the Lost Ark a more serious film.

It might have been interesting to see a darker ending to Star Wars but I'm glad they went with the ending they did. It doesn't make sense for them to rescue Han in the beginning of ROTJ only to kill him off midway through the movie? You might as well has killed him at the end of ESB then. I don't think ending ROTJ on another downer would have done the trilogy any favors. Not to mention Vader wasn't Luke's father in the original version and that was the emotional center of Return of the Jedi and a great twist in ESB.
 
Not to mention Vader wasn't Luke's father in the original version and that was the emotional center of Return of the Jedi and a great twist in ESB.

It was a great twist in TESB, and it was the emotional center of ROTJ. Also true is that it was not revealed in ANH that Vader was Luke's father, and there is nothing explict there to suggest it.

However, my friends and I have spotted three hints, probably deliberately introduced into the original cut of Star Wars (1977), all still unaltered from the original, that strongly support the idea that Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father all along.

#1:
AUNT BERU: Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.

UNCLE OWEN: That's what I'm afraid of.

[As Uncle Owen resumes eating, he seems not just disapproving, but since he turns his eyes down to his food, he seems deeply concerned.]

#2:
LUKE: How did my father die?

[There is a beat, during which Ben averts his eyes from Luke, which is a classic cue that he is about to tell a lie.]

BEN: A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct. Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force.

#3:
VADER: The Force is strong with this one!

[This indicates pretty unambiguously that Luke is in the same league with Vader, which naturally raises the question, "Why?" This question is not explicitly answered in the film, which is a clue that it will be addressed in the sequel.]

I expect these to have also been pointed out by others, and of course YMMV. There may be other hints, too.

Remarks: I say these are all still unaltered from the original in 1977. However, there were different versions of Aunt Beru's voice track used in different cuts of Star Wars in the initial releases, before one was settled on for the later cuts. But as far as I know, all the text of her dialog was the same across all versions. Furthermore, the variations in the inflections of her voice have no bearing on what Uncle Owen does in example #1, and I believe that the edits of his voice and actions are consistent, if not identical, across all versions. From http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/alternateversions:
The film was originally released with two stereo mixes created from the same four-track master. Later, a third audio mix was prepared for theaters which had not upgraded to Dolby stereo yet. This third audio mix was in mono and had a few minor differences from the other two audio mixes such as Aunt Beru being dubbed by a different actress. In 1981, two of the three versions were updated to include the "A New Hope" subtitle - the version not updated was the mono mix. Later on, a fifth audio mix was created (the fourth being created for the 1985 VHS release) for the 1993 Definitive Collection Laserdisc set. This audio mix combined elements from all three of the theatrical audio mixes but was primarily sourced from the 70mm stereo mix. The 1997 Special Edition and 2004 DVD release feature more changes (both audio and visual). The 2006 DVD bonus disc is made from the masters for the 1993 Definitive Collection laserdisc set but with the highest quality 1977 print available spliced in for the original opening crawl. This means that (excluding TV edits and pan & scan releases) there have been at least TEN different versions of Star Wars to date.
---

I still wonder how the SW films would've turned out had Lucas/Kurtz went with the original outline for the saga.
I think a lot of hardcore fans would love to get their hands on the Journal of the Whills.
 
I think those "clues" about Anakin might have been simply addition of a bit of drama, implying that there was something dangerous about him, and there was more to the story than Luke's simplistic notions of heroic Jedi. That might have been nothing worse than the idea that war is hell, and you might have to do nasty things, or that Owen and Beru knew that being a Jedi was often fatal (especially under the Empire!) and simply wanted to protect their adoptive son.

Or perhaps Anakin and Vader were buddies (implied by the dialogue) and Anakin could have done something to stop Vader at some point, but failed to, and Vader killed him and the Republic fell as a result. Obi-Wan didn't want to tell Luke the whole story, because it would reflect badly on Anakin, or perhaps make him look like a chump.

Luke may have been in Vader's league because Anakin had been in Vader's league too - maybe they were the two best of the young Jedi, friends but competitive. Maybe Vader realized that he'd never measure up to his friend and betrayed him out of jealousy. Lots of ways to capitalize on those hints.

The notion of Anakin taking Obi-Wan's role, and being Vader's friend who was blindsided by him, makes sense in context with Obi-Wan's age being 20 years older in the OT than in the PT. Originally, he seemed like he would have been more of a mentor to Jedi who were young warriors 20 years before ANH - both Anakin and Vader would have been the same age. In the PT, Obi-Wan was de-aged to place him in the Anakin role, and Anakin in the Vader role.

Has it ever been revealed who actually thought of Vader being Luke's father as a plot twist?
 
The Leigh Brackett ESB script also has Anakin as a seperate entity, I think (He would've appeared as a force ghost to Luke).

There's also an old Marvel comic which treats Anakin as seperate from Vader. Oops.


It's interesting how the story of all the films evolved. TPM's original script actually started out being more consistent with the OT continuity, with Qui-Gon as a secondary character and Obi-Wan discovering Anakin.
 
Well, it was Lucas's idea. He said he knew it from the begining. Vader means Father in Dutch.

Right.

The Leigh Brackett ESB script also has Anakin as a seperate entity, I think (He would've appeared as a force ghost to Luke).
According to the wikipedia aritcle on Leigh Brackett,

Brackett's screenplay has never been officially or legally published. According to Haffner, it can be read at one of two locations: 1) the library of the Eastern New Mexico University in Portales, New Mexico, but may not be copied or borrowed off-site; and 2) the archives at Lucasfilm, Ltd. in California. In 2010, the unpublished script was leaked online.
Do you have any citation of this claim, possibly with a description of the scene, what part of the story this event allegedly occurs, or page number in the screenplay?

There's also an old Marvel comic which treats Anakin as seperate from Vader. Oops.
Again, do you have a citation of this? This example, even if true, wouldn't necessarily carry any weight.
 
There's also an old Marvel comic which treats Anakin as seperate from Vader. Oops.
Again, do you have a citation of this? This example, even if true, wouldn't necessarily carry any weight.
Do you have any proof that Lucas always intended Vader to be Luke's father? Or, conversely, do you have a citation which pinpoints exactly when Lucas thought to create a Vader-Anakin-Luke connection? I mean, even if you do find an example, it wouldn't necessarily carry any weight ...
 
There's also an old Marvel comic which treats Anakin as seperate from Vader. Oops.
Again, do you have a citation of this? This example, even if true, wouldn't necessarily carry any weight.
Interesting that you didn't simply ask why I might say this. Instead you said this:
Do you have any proof that Lucas always intended Vader to be Luke's father? Or, conversely, do you have a citation which pinpoints exactly when Lucas thought to create a Vader-Anakin-Luke connection?

To recap, I cited specific examples
...that strongly support the idea that Lucas intended Vader to be Luke's father all along.
DarthPipes gave another example. I never claimed to have any proof, and I believe I said this:
I think a lot of hardcore fans would love to get their hands on the Journal of the Whills.
For, undoubtedly Lucas's original notes are where the proof lies, one way or the other. (I believe I also said "Your Mileage May Vary", in abbreviated form.)

I mean, even if you do find an example, it wouldn't necessarily carry any weight ...
I'll give this statement all the weight that it deserves.
 
Well I certainly found this interesting.

http://www.retroist.com/2010/11/08/1978-style-star-wars-spoilers/

Anyway, my mother was good to keep an eye out for Star Wars news – and when this particular item showed up in our local paper, she cut it out for me. I still have it to this day. And, it was my first introduction to spoilers. In late 1978, David Prowse revealed that he was Luke’s father – two years before Empire Strikes Back hit theaters. In retrospect, I wonder how George Lucas felt about this. Since there was no internet in 1978, he probably never knew that David was running around spilling the beans. This article was quite the shock to my 7 year old system. Could this be correct? Were they related? Was David playing a joke? Was the post-Watergate media trustworthy? I had to wait two years to find out.
 
Again, do you have a citation of this? This example, even if true, wouldn't necessarily carry any weight.
Interesting that you didn't simply ask why I might say this. Instead you said this:


To recap, I cited specific examples

DarthPipes gave another example. I never claimed to have any proof, and I believe I said this:
I think a lot of hardcore fans would love to get their hands on the Journal of the Whills.
For, undoubtedly Lucas's original notes are where the proof lies, one way or the other. (I believe I also said "Your Mileage May Vary", in abbreviated form.)

I mean, even if you do find an example, it wouldn't necessarily carry any weight ...
I'll give this statement all the weight that it deserves.
Yeah ... so ... where is there specific evidence of the earliest date (as in, before the release of ANH) for: Anakin=Vader=Luke's Father? Oh, and saying "Your mileage may vary" and "strongly supports" and "I never claimed to have any proof" are other ways of saying that such assertions don't "necessarily carry any weight."
 
Sweet Jesus.

Has anyone seen the newest ep?! Padawan Lost?!

This might be my favourate episode ever. First up, the visuals. They were, in a word, stunning. Felucia at night is prettier than Mortis, and gives Pandora a run for its money.

It had a great dose of action opening the episode as well, nothing too amazing but with some Jetpack troopers it was pretty impressive. Plus, like I said, everything looks like it's been turned up to 11. And then some.

The story was probably one of the darkest too. I won't spoil it, but it's fair to say the Trandoshian's are a cross between Klingons and Hirogen thrown into the Star Wars universe. So you can imagine what they do with their prisoners, and what certain Jedi are forced to do with no weapons....

So yeah, this was definitely Clone Wars at its best. I cannot wait for the finale now.
 
Sweet Jesus.

Has anyone seen the newest ep?! Padawan Lost?!

This might be my favourate episode ever. First up, the visuals. They were, in a word, stunning. Felucia at night is prettier than Mortis, and gives Pandora a run for its money.

It had a great dose of action opening the episode as well, nothing too amazing but with some Jetpack troopers it was pretty impressive. Plus, like I said, everything looks like it's been turned up to 11. And then some.

The story was probably one of the darkest too. I won't spoil it, but it's fair to say the Trandoshian's are a cross between Klingons and Hirogen thrown into the Star Wars universe. So you can imagine what they do with their prisoners, and what certain Jedi are forced to do with no weapons....

So yeah, this was definitely Clone Wars at its best. I cannot wait for the finale now.

Thanks, please don't spoil it. It does not air in the U.S. until April 1.
 
The Making of The Empire Strikes Back has a lot of details about Leigh Brackett's script. For whatever reason, Lucas hadn't told her that Vader was Luke's father. Brackett's script goes from point a to point b but otherwise, bares almost no resemblence to the final product. It's not a good script, not good characterization, and feels very old-style movie. Lucas re-wrote the script and it's what we see in the movie except the dialogue is atricious. Lawrence Kasadan then wrote the next three drafts and greatly improved the dialogue. Vader being Luke's father certainly wasn't Leigh Brackett's idea.

Lucas has written/stated that he always knew that Vader was Luke's father. And, as stated, Vader means Father. But he is prone to revisionism, including statements that he never intended to make nine movies.
 
I doubt if the idea of Vader being Luke and Leia's father didn't materialize til the final draft of TESB, if anyhting to keep it quiet. But that's not to say there wasn't plans along those lines when the movies started coming out. Although I don't really believe it was a part of the original storyline.

http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com/loststarwarsstories.html

There is an element of some mystery surrounding the fourth "trilogy" that was once attached to the Star Wars. Lucas today denies that he had any plans or story for the third trilogy (Episodes VII-IX), which isn't the case, but we can do one better: what was the story for Episodes X, XI, and XII? Am I crazy? If you've read Secret History of Star Wars you will know what I am referring to--in early 1978, it was announced in Time that there were twelve Star Wars films in the franchise. This isn't a typo; Lucasfilm referenced them frequently in publications such as Bantha Tracks from 1978 to 1980, and Lucas himself even addresses them in the May 1980 issue, stating he had limited the series to nine films instead.
The leaves the issue dangling: what were these films? I have been over some hypotheses in Secret History of Star Wars, and these seem to remain accurate in light of discoveries I have now made. Lucas in 1977 decided that Star Wars would be a franchise, and had it set at unlimited possibilities, like the James Bond series--the films would continue indefinitely, and generally stand alone. Gary Kurtz at the time says the films aren't chronological, and would bound around in time from one film to the next--Lucas himself states that he would like to one day do a film showing the fall of Darth Vader and the murder of Anakin Skywalker.
Lucas had developed some story ideas with Leigh Brackett in November 1977, but based on The Annotated Screenplays this doesn't amount to that much--some info on the Clone Wars is developed, but the only concrete sequel story point is that Luke has a twin sister, as his father's ghost reveals to him, who is also training to be a Jedi across the other side of the galaxy. However, a few months later, in March 1978, Lucas announced to Time magazine that the series would comprise of twelve films, but doesn't offer any specifics. By 1979, in an interview for Alan Arnold's 1980 book, Lucas now has something very different in mind--nine films, comprising three trilogies, chronologically connected, with twenty years in between each set, later elaborating that the third trilogy is about "the re-building of the Republic." He says in Bantha Tracks in May 1980 that the three remainders from the 12-episode plan were "tangential" to the saga, and so axed.
There are some very practical matters here. In Secret History of Star Wars, I maintain that there was little concrete story development done when Lucas had announced the twelve film plan in the new year of 1978--one can see this from the outlook and development of the Empire Strikes Back story conferences of November 1977, where Lucas had few or only vague ideas as to where his story was going. The number twelve, attached to the films just after this, was likely put in place because twelve was the traditional number of episodes in a serial, and so The Adventures of Luke Skywalker, as the series was then called, would run for twelve episodes. I stand by this.
However, I now discover evidence of some of the types of films Lucas was interested in exploring, as he states in 1980. This shows evidence of the undeveloped Bond-like structure from 1977 and 1978. As a precursor, this is what he says in August 1977, in an interview for Rolling Stone:
"I think the sequels will be much, much better. What I want to do is direct the last sequel. I could do the first one and the last one and let everyone else do the ones in between...I would want to try and get some good directors, and see what their interpretation of the theme is. I think it will be interesting, it is like taking a theme in film school, say, okay, everybody do their interpretation of this theme. It's an interesting idea to see how people interpret the genre. Nobody has to worry about what a Wookie is and what it does and how it reacts. Wookies are there, the people are there, the environment is there, the empire is there...I've put up the concrete slab of the walls and now everybody can have fun drawing the pictures and putting on the little gargoyles and doing all the really fun stuff. And it's a competition. I'm hoping if I get friends of mine they will want to do a much better film, like, 'I'll show George that I can do a film twice that good.'...One of the sequels we are thinking of is the young days of Ben Kenobi. It would probably be all different actors."
 
The Leigh Brackett ESB script also has Anakin as a seperate entity, I think (He would've appeared as a force ghost to Luke).
I concede that this is true in the "leaked copy" of Leigh Brackett's first draft. But there are two issues here. Even if we grant that the draft is authentic, which it appears to be, it is only a first draft. I think all sources will agree that Ms. Brackett died before completing additional revisions that were definitely intended. We don't know what those revisions might have looked like, or what they were intended to be. Furthermore, we do not know what source material Lucas provided to her. However, thank you for pointing this out, Whofan. It is a piece to the puzzle.

Also, thank you DWF for pointing out The Secret History of Star Wars. Not having actually read this, it looks like it might contain many pieces of the puzzle. Also, thank you for the newspaper article about what David Prowse said :lol:.

As for the example in Marvel comics, once Marvel finished with issue #6, they were on their own, trail-blazing into what would become the EU. The Wookieepedia considers the Marvel Comics adventures Secondary Canon, which predates "a consistent effort to maintain continuity."
 
Vader as Luke's father first appears in the second draft of the Empire Strikes Back screenplay, written by Lucas. Lucas wasn't going to use Leigh Brackett to write it because he wasn't happy with her first draft but she passed away. He decided to give her screenplay credit anyway in tribute and I think because her family could benefit from that or something.
 
Harrison Ford was always pissy with the SW films. If you read The Making of the Empire Strikes Back book, he seems just irritable by the end of his shooting. ESB wasn't an easy shoot and dealing with Carrie Fisher probably wasn't easy.
However, now that he's older and his latest roles have been so-so, he seems to be changing his tune.
 
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