Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[DarthPipes]

- The (perhaps also unintentional) depiction of the Clone Wars as wholly contrived by greedy capitalists and nefarious Sith, without any legitimate grievances from the Separatists. This is in the process of being scrapped (yay!) through the addition of more details to the story.

I'd like to see the legitimate Separatists being the original driving force behind the war, with the capitalists and Sith jumping on the bandwagon in an opportunistic way. This feels like a much more natural way for the war to evolve, and doesn't require the good guys to be ridiculously oblivious or naive.

I always thought the original Seperatist movement was planets who got disgusted with the corruption in The Republic and got changed. They allowed Dooku (The Sith definitely played a major role in that corruption and galacit problems) and his commerce guild goons to hijack their cause.

For the average SW citizen, backstory on Dooku from various sources say that he left the Jedi Order after the events of TPM, becoming one of The Lost Twenty Jedi. He returned to his homeworld and claimed his birthright (his title as Count and his vast fortune). He then disappeared or laid low for eight years before reemerging on Raxus Prime. In a speech he blasted The Republic and Jedi for corruption and a decrease in morality across the galaxy.

Check out holonetnews.com (a website operated by LFL prior to the release of AOTC. It has long since been abandoned but it still stands).

- The lack of any reference to the morality of using clones as cannon fodder. As of the last episode, there are signs that this may be changing. My own favorite fanwank for addressing this problem is that the Republic isn't really a perfect analogy to our own society, because they don't have the concept that all sentient beings are equal.

We've seen clone-centered episodes and we had that one episode in the first season where a clone joined with the Seperatists because he didn't want to be a slave of The Republic.

But the lack of anyone expressing doubts over using the clones, especially the Jedi, is bizarre and puzzling. I've said this before but Anakin should be the one most concerned with it. He was a slave and that clones words about not being a slave should have had some effect on him. Anakin's issues with slavery haven't been addressed at all on this series and that's unfortunate. He should despise the fact that The Republic is aligned with slavers like The Hutts. Outside of his initial displeasure over learing the news, we've seen nothing yet and that is a giganitc missed opportunity so far.

 

[Set Harth]

^But you're making my point for me.

Except where I point out that the contradiction is actually a fan myth. In the context of TCW I'm referring to the possibility of stronger "contradiction" than that.

But why should that sort of fate concern the Force?

The Force's fate is linked to the galaxy's fate, and we see indication that its will is concerned with galactic events.

The PT implies its wholly coercive in the case of someone too stupid to be on his guard against it (Anakin) but since Anakin's characterization that allows that to happen has now been scrapped, it's anybody's guess what's going on.

I don't know what "wholly coercive" means, but this seems to suggest that Anakin didn't have a choice, which would be just another rewrite. It didn't happen. TCW doesn't need to scrap a characterization that's imaginary in the first place, nor could it negate the content of the films even if it wanted to. They are still canon regardless of what happens with the series. Throwing a film scene out of canon here and there due to nothing other than personal distaste would be as illegitimate a ploy as... throwing a Star Trek film out of canon for the same reason.

 

[fett51]

So the Force does exist everywhere, but it punishes people for using it wrong or for some other reason? That's more evidence that it's not like a fundamental law of physics and more like a living being. Gravity does not leave galaxies in a huff if people are misusing it.

As long as we're going nuts on the NJO spoilers, the Vong did feel the force but had it stripped from them. They're from a living, force sensitive planet. Long story short, it got fed up with their violence, exiled them and stripped them of the force. One of them managed to revive his connection to the force by experimenting on himself.

The idea of stripping the force from people is something that happens occasionally in the EU, it can only be done by extremely powerful force users, or by groups of them working together, with the exception of one case where a Jedi cut herself off from the force to avoid feeling the death of a planet. There is no defense against being cut off, but it is possible to restore one's connection in time. So I don't think they're being cut off entirely, just weakened tremendously. The Vong seemed to be missing something biologically, their planet probably neutered their midichlorians or something.

 

[Christopher]

Except where I point out that the contradiction is actually a fan myth.

If Lucas has never contradicted himself, then who shot first?

 

[JD]

I've seen people complaining about the EU elements not being consistent when brought over to the show, but I think people are just looking at it wrong. I really at it is as them simply adapting the stuff like a comic or book, not really bringing it directly over.

 

[DWF]

I mean, come on, it's not like the six extant films are entirely consistent with one another as it is. Obi-Wan says in TESB that Yoda trained him, but TPM gives us Qui-Gon. Leia says in ROTJ that she remembers her real mother, but ROTS has her mother die in childbirth.

We saw Yoda training younglins so it's so impossible to think that he trained Obi-Wan at some point. And Leia only remember feelings about her mother, not that she remembers her a person just emotions.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

But the lack of anyone expressing doubts over using the clones, especially the Jedi, is bizarre and puzzling. I've said this before but Anakin should be the one most concerned with it.

That might be difficult to reconcile with his future career as a Sith. He's already been depicted as being very concerned with people, clones (assuming they are not regarded as people) and droids he knows personally. I guess we can accept that because he's the type of person who can care a lot about his close friends and not at all about faceless strangers who are easy to discount.

This would also be consistent with his disrespect for democracy, which requires that he simply not care about the great mass of people he'll never know personally, and regard them as little better than inanimate objects. In Anakin's idea of a benign dictatorship, he can envision all his friends being taken care of, and to hell with the rest.

Anakin's issues with slavery haven't been addressed at all on this series and that's unfortunate. He should despise the fact that The Republic is aligned with slavers like The Hutts.

This is the same problem - how can he be against slavery and against democracy? Either he's against slavery and for democracy (he supports individual rights for everyone) or he's pro-slavery and against democracy (people can't be trusted with freedom and need to be controlled for their own good.) Just because he was a slave doesn't mean he objects to other people being enslaved, if he can tell himself "I'm a Jedi and one of the elite so of course I should be free. But most people are better off as slaves."

Then the problem is how to keep the audience from saying yuuuuck to a guy like that. Maybe if he's a powerful, charismatic, kick-ass type of guy who doesn't whine or act stupid, it's still possible. Depict him as a person who is kinda nasty but powerful. That's a big improvement over kinda nasty but weak and snivelling.

I don't know what "wholly coercive" means, but this seems to suggest that Anakin didn't have a choice, which would be just another rewrite.

What I meant is that Anakin never really had a chance the way the movies depicted him. He was never out in front of the plotline, but a helpless pawn who apparently had no idea what was going on. That's what made him appear to be stupid. There was never that make or break moment where he clearly made a decision to embrace the Dark Side, knowing that he had an option and showing that he was fully aware of the consequences. He just seemed to fall into it.

That's one reason why TCW should revise ROTS to give us that definite make or break moment, and prove to us that Anakin actually made a choice to embrace the Dark Side, and it wasn't because Palps was manipulative or Anakin was too stupid or weak to resist. If the intent was to show Anakin as being in charge of his own story as a main character should be, the PT utterly failed. I'm willing to give Lucas another shot at it.

 

[Mr Light]

Yoda trains all Jedi as children, then they move onto one on one training as padawans. So Yoda did train Obi-Wan.

 

[Set Harth]

If Lucas has never contradicted himself, then who shot first?

I thought the point was contradictions between different chapters of the chronology. Even then, there are "contradictions" and there are contradictions: some can be easily explained, some aren't really contradictions at all given the various implications of the earlier material, while I can imagine "unfixable" ones that would almost be impossible to rationalize. I don't find it useful to lump all contradictions together.

He was never out in front of the plotline, but a helpless pawn who apparently had no idea what was going on.

Up until the point where he knew all about what was going on, and before that he was in the same boat with everyone else. The only one "out in front" was Palpatine, by design. That fact coexists with the fact that Anakin still had a choice.

There was never that make or break moment where he clearly made a decision to embrace the Dark Side, knowing that he had an option and showing that he was fully aware of the consequences.

There was just such a moment. I think it's safe to assume that there were some admonitions against the dark side during Anakin's years of training, given how quickly the topic was addressed during Luke's training.

That's one reason why TCW should revise ROTS to give us that definite make or break moment, and prove to us that Anakin actually made a choice to embrace the Dark Side

There are two reasons why TCW won't do this. First, it's in ROTS already. Also, TCW was never destined to replace ROTS. They're not going to kick one of the films out of canon and christen a particular episode, a specific season, or the entire run of TCW the new "Episode III". This series doesn't have the power to revise one of the films; it goes between them. Since Anakin's moment comes chronologically after the series, it would be out of place in TCW.

and it wasn't because Palps was manipulative

You seem to imply that Palpatine's manipulative nature and Anakin making a choice are mutually exclusive. They're not. Accountability isn't meant to exist in a vacuum. It shouldn't be negated due to the influence of Palpatine, a so-called "crappy childhood", or other factors. Otherwise by extension no one is accountable.

 

[JD]

This is the same problem - how can he be against slavery and against democracy? Either he's against slavery and for democracy (he supports individual rights for everyone) or he's pro-slavery and against democracy (people can't be trusted with freedom and need to be controlled for their own good.) Just because he was a slave doesn't mean he objects to other people being enslaved, if he can tell himself "I'm a Jedi and one of the elite so of course I should be free. But most people are better off as slaves."

I think it's worth pointing out that, at least in the stuff I've seen and read, no has ever really objected to slavery in the SW galaxy. Everything seems to pretty much just treat it as something that's just a regular part of the universe.

 

[Christopher]

If Lucas has never contradicted himself, then who shot first?

I thought the point was contradictions between different chapters of the chronology.

The point is that it's the prerogative of the creators of a canon to revise it. The point is that it's wrong to assume that absolute consistency is obligatory or that it's the single overriding priority that defines the legitimacy of a story. Continuity is a storytelling tool, and like any other tool, there are times to wield it forcefully and times to ease off on it, depending on the overall good of the story. Too many fans talk as though continuity is the single thing that matters in a canon, and that's just missing the whole point of fiction. Fiction is invented, and that means it can be reinvented.

 

[Set Harth]

Continuity is a storytelling tool, and like any other tool, there are times to wield it forcefully and times to ease off on it, depending on the overall good of the story.

They're still not mutually exclusive. With a certain amount of diligence, there's no need to "ease off" on continuity between chronologically separate chapters. The potential lack of said diligence is what I'm referring to in this case. If TCW ends up fundamentally contradicting the PT on this issue, it won't be a necessary sacrifice on the altar of "the overall good of the story", except from the subjective POV of those who reject the PT's stance; it'll simply be a case of the writers dropping the ball.

 

[DarthPipes]

The thing is though, Lucas doesn't seem to hold himself to stuff he established in other films.

Examples...

-In ROTJ, Leia tells Luke she remembers her mother. In the SW Annotated Screenplay book, Lucas wrote that he wanted one of the twins to have memories of their real mother. In ROTS, we see that Padme died one minute after Leia's deaeth, meaning there's no way Leia could have memories of her.

-In ESB, Yoda tells Luke that the dark side is not stronger. In the AOTC commentary track, Lucas states that the dark side IS stronger.

What happens when you don't behold yourself to established continuity in your own movies?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The star wars universe not being consistent is self-evident.
In some cases, fans manage to come with convoluted fan-explanations to maintain the illusion of continuity.
In many cases, not even convoluted fanon can explain the contradictions (the different portrayals of the force, who shoot first, etc).

 

[Christopher]

They're still not mutually exclusive. With a certain amount of diligence, there's no need to "ease off" on continuity between chronologically separate chapters. The potential lack of said diligence is what I'm referring to in this case. If TCW ends up fundamentally contradicting the PT on this issue, it won't be a necessary sacrifice on the altar of "the overall good of the story", except from the subjective POV of those who reject the PT's stance; it'll simply be a case of the writers dropping the ball.

I wasn't aware we were speaking of a specific continuity issue. I was just irritated by the suggestion that somebody shouldn't be allowed to write for the franchise if they don't live up to your standards of consistency. It's an obnoxious and overweening way of conveying disagreement with their choices.

 

[JediKnightButler]

What happens when you don't behold yourself to established continuity in your own movies?

Ah, but it all DOES make sense..............from a certain point of view.

 

[Christopher]

Movie series rewrite their own continuity all the time. Look at Planet of the Apes. Each of the first four movies was conceived with no expectation of a sequel, so each sequel had to retcon or ignore facts from the previous movie in order to justify its existence. The first movie had the astronauts in suspended animation for 2006 years, but the second movie retconned it into a time warp so another ship could follow them. The second movie had the world destroyed and everyone dying, but the third movie postulated, absurdly, that a group of preindustrial apes had somehow managed to launch the astronauts' capsule without boosters, fuel, a gantry, a support crew, or even electricity, and with very little prior warning, and return through the time warp. The fourth movie postulated that the development of the apes into their more humanoid form, previously assumed to be a gradual process, somehow magically happened in the 20 years since the third movie's events. And while only Caesar could speak in the fourth film, all the apes could speak in the fifth film, set only 30 years later.

And of course, Lucas was making things up as he went and changing his mind all the time. Sure, the inconsistencies can be rationalized, but that doesn't mean his intentions over time didn't change. He never would've portrayed Leia as Luke's love interest in ANH if he'd had any intention of making her his sister.

The thing to keep in mind is that the human brain is specifically adapted to seek patterns, to take in multiple isolated inputs and construct a model that unifies them. So we're very good at perceiving something as consistent even when it isn't, because we're able to construct a mental model that accounts for the inconsistencies or glosses them over. The perception of consistency in a fictional universe is as much a product of the observer's mind as of the fiction itself. That's why it's a mistake to complain too much about the inconsistencies that inevitably crop up in any extended fictional series. Those who are invested in the idea of the fictional universe as consistent will find a way to reconcile them.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The only one "out in front" was Palpatine, by design.

If Lucas intended Palps to be the main character, then it makes sense that he was the only one who was driving the story from first to last, but Palps clearly wasn't supposed to be the main character. The impression that he's the main character is an accident caused by incredibly sloppy writing, right down to the structure of the story being mis-handled.

For starters, Palps is far too two-dimensional for a main character. There's no attempt to explain his motivations other than sheer power lust. And the only reason the PT exists in the first place is to explore the backstory of Vader. We don't need to see Palps' backstory, certainly not in preference to Vaders'.

That's the weird thing about the PT: there isn't a main character, because there's nobody in the story that qualifies to be the main character. There may be a way to successfully write a story without a main character, but the PT sure wasn't it.

Anakin was too passive to be a main character; Palps was too one-dimensional to be a main character. I can't think of another story I've ever read or views that is so fundamentally flawed that there is no main character (and not by "design")

That fact coexists with the fact that Anakin still had a choice.

The way he was depicted, he was too stupid and clueless to exercise true free choice.

There was just such a moment.

Oh really? What was it? I sure didn't see anything that depicted Anakin as anything more than an easily-led fool who just followed Palps around like a lap dog.

You seem to imply that Palpatine's manipulative nature and Anakin making a choice are mutually exclusive.

They don't need to be mutually exclusive if Palps fails to manipulate Anakin. Like so: Anakin figures out Palps' game before Palps has a chance to bamboozle Anakin. To Palps' surprise, Anakin reveals that he's been onto his game all along, and played along because he's decided, independent of Palps' little games, that the Dark Side is the better choice, because [fill in the blank.]

Anakin turns the tables on Palps and takes charge of the story. That's what a main character does: take charge of the story, if not throughout, then at some point in the story before the end!

And we still need a good [fill in the blank] because so far all we have is Anakin becomes evil because he is a) stupid (too pathetic) or b) wuuuuuvs his wife too much (cop-out!)

There are several ways to make this story work with rewriting to erase the fatal flaws. TCW seems to be on the right track by depicting Anakin as strong, heroic, yet apparently oblivious to the idea that everyone, not just people he knows personally, deserve individual rights. That kind of moral obliviousness could serve as a decent [fill in the blank], and may be what Lucas intended all along, but simply didn't manage to convey on-screen.

Too many fans talk as though continuity is the single thing that matters in a canon, and that's just missing the whole point of fiction. Fiction is invented, and that means it can be reinvented.

The examples I've seen of "bad" canon violations come from Star Trek and were caused by writers who were too lazy to check up on canon. I'm not in favor of rewriting just to make things easier for lazy writers. I'm 100% in favor of it to improve a flawed story.

-In ROTJ, Leia tells Luke she remembers her mother. In the SW Annotated Screenplay book, Lucas wrote that he wanted one of the twins to have memories of their real mother. In ROTS, we see that Padme died one minute after Leia's deaeth, meaning there's no way Leia could have memories of her.

-In ESB, Yoda tells Luke that the dark side is not stronger. In the AOTC commentary track, Lucas states that the dark side IS stronger.

Those are annoying inconsistencies, but they don't represent fundamental flaws in the story. They can be papered over by fanwanking: Leia's memories come from the Force (and she doesn't know it); either Yoda or Lucas are lying in the second case (I choose to believe Yoda ). Or they mean different things by "stronger" - do you mean short term or long term?

 

[fett51]

-In ESB, Yoda tells Luke that the dark side is not stronger. In the AOTC commentary track, Lucas states that the dark side IS stronger.

I actually had a thought on that, Yoda said the dark side isn't stronger, but it is easier and faster. So while the two sides may be equal overall, in practical effect the dark side makes someone more powerful than using the light side.

Or else Yoda was too thick to quit buying into Jedi propaganda even after Palpatine kicked him around

 

[Admiral_Young]

As we've already discussed in previous threads and no doubt earlier in this one, Yoda also mentions that that Dark Side clouds everything and makes it difficult to read the good side of the Force. Since the dark side is fueled by anger and hatred and Lord knows there's an abundance of that it is easier to access. There's probably a lot more anger and hatred in the universe than people who are at peace with themselves.