Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Admiral_Young]

Dave Filoni is the show runner of "Star Wars: The Clone Wars". At the Celebration V panel for the series he right out said that Lucas was their "secret weapon" in terms of generating story ideas or characters. The two of them essentially bounce ideas off of each other but Filoni has full control.

I don't blame Hayden Christiansen at all for the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker in the two prequel movies. I fully blame George Lucas for writing the character as a whiny, unlikeable spoiled brat who thinks the universe revolves around him. Anakin in the Clone Wars is written drastically different than he was in the prequel films. I think if he was written this way in the films he would have been seen as a much more likable and sympathetic character.

 

[Mr Light]

There's also the problem that a lot of actors have trouble doing their job well in front of a green screen with nothing to work off of, like poor Natalie who is otherwise fantastic.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yep I tend to agree with that sentiment Mr. Light. From watching the behind the scenes documentaries Hayden kind of looks uncomfortable working in the green screen scenes. That was just my impression. I have a lot of time for Hayden's work ever since I saw him in "Higher Ground" and then in "Life as a House". He plays essentially the same characters in each of these and does it way better than in Star Wars.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Dave Filoni is the show runner of "Star Wars: The Clone Wars". At the Celebration V panel for the series he right out said that Lucas was their "secret weapon" in terms of generating story ideas or characters. The two of them essentially bounce ideas off of each other but Filoni has full control.

Looking in from the outside, it seems to me that Lucas does generate a lot of concepts, but unlike the PT, where he had nobody who could shape those ideas into a good, strong storyline, he now has Filoni to do that crucial part of the job. The result of course is much better now.

I don't blame Hayden Christiansen at all for the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker in the two prequel movies. I fully blame George Lucas for writing the character as a whiny, unlikeable spoiled brat who thinks the universe revolves around him.

I go back and forth with who's to blame.

On one hand, the character makes sense in the story as a whiny, unlikable spoiled brat, in that there's no other real motivation for him to side with Palps other than being stupid, willful and mad at the world in an adolescent-tantrum sort of way. The problem is not logic so much as the idiocy of expecting us to care about a character like that enough for the story to have the emotional impact it should. The story makes sense, but it's not a story worth telling.

On the other hand, the way Anakin is being written in TCW is a character worth telling a story about. But then there's a big, glaring hole regarding his motivation, since he is neither stupid nor emotionally immature enough that the PT logic still makes sense. The story is worth telling, but no longer holds together logically.

Either way, the story has a huge, fatal problem. The right way to resolve it is to rewrite the character (as is being done) and then revise the story so that it now makes sense for the re-characterization. It's possible this could be accomplished entirely within TCW by setting up an adequate backstory for Anakin's fall, and implying that the situation in ROTS was more a straw-that-broke-the-camel'-back thing.

Either way, the blame ultimately lies with Lucas. If Christensen wasn't capable of playing the role correctly, Lucas is to blame for hiring him. If he didn't understand how to play the role correctly, Lucas is to blame for not directing him better.

Given that the whiny-brat characterization does make sense in the PT, I suspect that what's really happening is that Lucas did intend to write the character like that and grossly underestimated how much it would sabotage the whole story. Now he's revising his mistake, so at least he realizes where it all went so horribly wrong.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

He was never depicted as having a good motive to jump to the Dark Side

It was pretty strongly emphasized in the film. You can't miss it.

His deep-seated motive could be a fear of losing what he loves

Or maybe you can.

You're still missing the point by a mile. Anakin's motivation is whiny and pathetic, and clearly unworthy of a hero, but the real problem is the lack of that crucial make-or-break scene where we understand that he has taken charge of the story, knows what's going on, and is making the free choice of embracing the dark side. He needs to be a competent moral actor in order to have the stature to qualify as a main character in what is allegedly his own story, and make a decision that is not driven by Palp's scheming or his own stupidity.

But at this point, it's obvious that for whatever reason, you are so deeply emotionally invested in defending the disastrous writing of the PT at all costs that you will never comprehend what I am saying. I can only advise you to expend your energies supporting more worthy ideas, considering that even Lucas is admitting that the PT was botched, as evidenced by the fact that he is now rewriting and amending the whole story in a pretty thorough (and much improved) way, thus leaving you high and dry, and looking pretty foolish. But go ahead and continue your masochistic efforts - it's kind of entertaining, if also kind of sad.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yeah Anakin's "reason" for his downfall and turn to the dark side was pretty pathetic in my opinion and another disappointing aspect of the prequel trilogy. On the one hand it does kind of explain why Vader becomes such a hard ass, he's isolated himself from people completely in a way and allowed himself to feel only anger as a primary emotion which of course fuels the dark side. I don't really think that this is originally how Lucas envisioned Anakin's turn...maybe he ran into blocks and this is the only thing he could think of, who knows. I remember after Revenge of the Sith came out a lot of people bitched and complained on this board that Lucas had turned Vader into a whiny bitch just due to the scene after his "Creation" in the chamber with Palps.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't really think that this is originally how Lucas envisioned Anakin's turn...maybe he ran into blocks and this is the only thing he could think of, who knows.

I think Lucas underestimated just how much of Vader's popularity could be traced to the attraction of power - pure, heedless, irresponsible power. Power without restrictions or excuses. Young males in particular love that fantasy, but frankly, pretty much everyone goes for it.

I'm old enough to remember when Star Wars first came out in 1977. Vader was by far the most popular character - he was insanely popular. Sure, part of it was that he was faceless and everyone could project themselves onto him, and James Earl Jones' voice was way cool, but the fact that he wielded immense power and blew up planets and just didn't give a shit was a big part of the attraction.

Making that character seem weak or not fully in control of circumstances and himself is the worst thing you can do to a character like that. Just destroys all the fun of the power fantasy. The trick to writing Anakin is to create a human analog to Vader that preserves, as much as possible, the power-fantasy wish fulfillment element. Have him fall out of arrogance, overconfidence, hubris - the faults of someone who overestimates his power. There was never any need to make him weak. There are lots of way to push him off that cliff.

I remember after Revenge of the Sith came out a lot of people bitched and complained on this board that Lucas had turned Vader into a whiny bitch just due to the scene after his "Creation" in the chamber with Palps.

The damage was done long before then, but it was just rubbing salt in our wounds that that scene could have (should have) been so amazingly cool and instead was botched and borderline comical.

 

[DarthPipes]

I recall Lucas saying something to the effect of Vader being a "sad old man."

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Nobody wants a movie about a sad old man, at least not when they're going to the movies for popcorn excitement and fun. Sad old man movies are for serious Oscar-bait draaamaa.

And Vader never got old. He was what, in his mid-40s when he died?

 

[Mr Light]

^

What are you kidding? He looked just like Hayden Christensen in Revenge of the Sith!

 

[Admiral_Young]

Vader would have been around 45 at the time of his death yep, if Anakin was supposed to be around 21 at the time of ROTS. The decay and use of the dark side made him seem older. At least that has been the explanation I used to explain his appearance in ROTJ.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

^

What are you kidding? He looked just like Hayden Christensen in Revenge of the Sith!

Except for the guy when Luke took off the helmet, who looked like he was about 100 years old.

The decay and use of the dark side made him seem older.

Yet Obi-Wan also seemed to be a victim of rapid aging. I guess the dry heat on Tatooine plays havoc with your skin pores.

I'm waiting for CGI to advance to the point where the TCW Anakin can be digitally inserted into all of his scenes in AOTC, ROTS and ROTJ. Someday, I want to see one consistent storyline for Anakin because without that, what should be powerful emotional impact in ROTJ is destroyed because the suspension of disbelief cannot be maintained by seeing some guy who doesn't match up with any portrayal of Anakin, and then that other guy who makes me want to throw my popcorn at the screen.

I'd also be happy if this consistent storyline happened entirely in animation, and yes, that includes the OT. I'd watch the OT all over again as an animated series. That would give the writers some great fill-in-the-blanks opportunities, and I wouldn't be at all adverse to serious revisions in ROTJ (I probably don't need to outline what needs to go).

Expanding upon that theme: if TCW is still on a five-year plan, then assuming Ahsoka survives the finale (her absence from ROTS can be explained by events other than her death), she would make a great lead character for a ROTS-to-ANH series spanning 20 years (not necessarily running 20 years but since this is animation, it's not out of the question).

For the sake of his pores, there's no reason Obi-Wan has to stay on Tatooine the whole 20 years. And Boba Fett's backstory could easily accommodate his inclusion in the series (I want to see him back in TCW in the meantime).

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Yep lol.

 

[Set Harth]

You're still missing the point by a mile.

You're still insisting things "never" happened... when they did. That is the point.

Anakin's motivation is whiny and pathetic, and clearly unworthy of a hero

The motivation that supposedly didn't even exist? Yes, it is indeed whiny and pathetic in its complete nonexistence. I think you mean Anakin is whiny and pathetic.

but the real problem is the lack of that crucial make-or-break scene where we understand that he has taken charge of the story

Lucas simply failed to provide you with what you're used to: another dumbed-down iteration of your imaginary "out in front" rule. Bad Lucas. Bad!!!

and is making the free choice of embracing the dark side.

You still can't miss it... unless of course it fails to please you, and is summarily eliminated from history as a result. You can deny it all you want, it's still there in the film. Free choice doesn't have a "Sith manipulator" accountability exemption.

it's obvious that for whatever reason, you are so deeply emotionally invested in defending the disastrous writing of the PT at all costs that you will never comprehend what I am saying.

You seem to be unable to comprehend that abject denial and ad hominem tactics don't actually substitute for an argument.

Making that character seem weak or not fully in control of circumstances and himself is the worst thing you can do to a character like that. Just destroys all the fun of the power fantasy.

Yeah, who wants realism in their fantasy? Having a character not be fully in control of circumstances at all times just takes away all the fun. The entire history of literature and film disproves such a notion, but who cares? It's Star Wars!

even Lucas is admitting that the PT was botched, as evidenced by the fact that he is now rewriting and amending the whole story in a pretty thorough (and much improved) way

Complete bullshit. Lucas isn't the writer and he never said any such thing. Now you're simply rewriting history in the real world. It makes sense - if rewriting is what makes you feel better, why stop at rewriting what happened in the film?

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ The fact is though he is rewriting events in the PT timeline, Ahoska's presence in the series would prove that.

 

[Set Harth]

Ahsoka's presence doesn't rewrite anything in the PT.

I'm waiting for CGI to advance to the point where the TCW Anakin can be digitally inserted into all of his scenes in AOTC, ROTS and ROTJ.

I have bad news for you. Santa's going to let you down that year. Reindeer crap on the roof and everything.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Yes she does since there was no mention or intention for Anakin to have a Padawan of his own in the movies.

 

[Set Harth]

You're changing the subject. Changing intentions don't equate to changing events in the PT timeline. Assumptions are being contradicted, not events or actual information from the films. Nothing in ROTS states or proves that Anakin never had a padawan.

 

[Whofan]

Anakin having a padawan however does contradict earlier Expanded Universe material set during the wars.

 

[Set Harth]

That's true in essence. However, the question was rewriting the PT. The actual retconners are pointing the finger at Lucas as usual, in an apparent attempt to distract from their own retconning. Lucas & Co. contradicting preexisting EU is a different matter. Some would say that happens routinely when a new film comes out.