Star Wars Rebels Season Four (spoilers)

[Christopher]

For me, the clincher is Threepio's reaction. He's a protocol droid, not a medical droid or a mining droid and as we see later on, he can't tell a power socket from a computer terminal. If he knows it works, then it's a good chance it's a well known method of stasis.

Ahh, but what Threepio actually says is, "Oh, they've encased him in carbonite. He should be quite well-protected -- if he survives the freezing process, that is." So Threepio explicitly has no idea whether the freezing process is safe for organic beings; he only knows, from his perspective as an inorganic being encased in metal, that carbonite is a good, strong material to make a protective shell out of. That's the whole joke there -- that Threepio's opinion, as usual, is unhelpful, because he doesn't know what he's talking about or because the information he does have isn't relevant to the other characters' priorities.

Indeed, one of those "later writers" was Lucas himself as he oversaw the Clone Wars show, including the episode where it was shown how Vader had first hand knowledge of the process. If the suggestion had been brought up and it wasn't in tune with his original intent, you can bet he'd have said "no, that's not how it works."

By that logic, Greedo always shot first. Lucas has changed his mind and retconned his own universe plenty of times, and fans have never swallowed it blindly.

 

[Reverend]

Ahh, but what Threepio actually says is, "Oh, they've encased him in carbonite. He should be quite well-protected -- if he survives the freezing process, that is." So Threepio explicitly has no idea whether the freezing process is safe for organic beings; he only knows, from his perspective as an inorganic being encased in metal, that carbonite is a good, strong material to make a protective shell out of. That's the whole joke there -- that Threepio's opinion, as usual, is unhelpful, because he doesn't know what he's talking about or because the information he does have isn't relevant to the other characters' priorities.

So your argument is that Threepio knows enough about industrial carbon freezing used in tibanna gas mining to make that determination, but has no clue about stasis methods?
Sure. OK.

By that logic, Greedo always shot first. Lucas has changed his mind and retconned his own universe plenty of times, and fans have never swallowed it blindly.

That argument is flawed in at least three different ways, but I'm just not pedantic enough to bother refuting it right now.

 

[Christopher]

So your argument is that Threepio knows enough about industrial carbon freezing used in tibanna gas mining to make that determination, but has no clue about stasis methods?
Sure. OK.

No, I'm saying that there are two distinct parts of the process: freezing living tissue, and encasing an object in the material carbonite. Think of carbonite like the aluminum foil you wrap your frozen leftovers in. Aluminum is also used for many other things besides wrapping leftovers. So Threepio may have known about carbonite's value as an encasing material because, say, it's used in making the casings of certain kinds of droid. But by his own verbatim dialogue, we know that he had no clue whether a human could survive being frozen inside it.

 

[Xerxes82]

No, I'm saying that there are two distinct parts of the process: freezing living tissue, and encasing an object in the material carbonite. Think of carbonite like the aluminum foil you wrap your frozen leftovers in. Aluminum is also used for many other things besides wrapping leftovers. So Threepio may have known about carbonite's value as an encasing material because, say, it's used in making the casings of certain kinds of droid. But by his own verbatim dialogue, we know that he had no clue whether a human could survive being frozen inside it.

Yeah, but there's the point of the equipment to consider. As you've already noted, Vader has used this trick before, thanks to TCW. So, let's assume for a second that carbon freezing is known for it's stasis capabilities. It's entirely possible that it's the Cloud City equipment that provides the risk. That carbon freezing can be executed safely and effectively on life forms, but that the facilities on the station that Vader is working with simply aren't designed to do so as a matter of course. It could be that during the Clone Wars, the Jedi strike team used medical carbon freezing equipment that was specifically designed to achieve the stasis effect.

So the problem isn't with the freezing process itself, but rather that they're trying to get an effect from equipment that is either imprecise or crude. The best analogy that comes to mind is radiation therapy. Controlled, medical treatments are both possible and effective. But that doesn't mean that you could just use anything that generates radiation to achieve the same effect. The concern isn't that carbon freezing is dangerous in and of itself. The concern is whether or not Lando's people can MacGuyver their industrial freezing apparatus into a medical device.

 

[Tuskin38]

I bring up Vader's the 'Crude but adequate' line implies he has seen facilities such as that before.

According the carbon-freezing Legends page on Wookieepedia, Vader ordered Cloud City's chamber to be modified.

But that could just be bad writing because Wiki.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah, but there's the point of the equipment to consider. As you've already noted, Vader has used this trick before, thanks to TCW.

I'm talking about what the writers of The Empire Strikes Back intended in 1982, and the extent to which the TCW episode retcons that. What I'm saying is that TESB pretty clearly suggests that Vader considers this a risky, unproven process, which is the whole reason Han is frozen at all.

So, let's assume for a second that carbon freezing is known for it's stasis capabilities. It's entirely possible that it's the Cloud City equipment that provides the risk.

I've already quoted Lando's exact words that argue otherwise -- "We only use this facility for carbon freezing. If you put him in there, it might kill him." That does not suggest that carbon freezing in general is safe but this particular facility is a crude form of it; it's saying outright that carbon freezing, per se, might kill someone. As I said, the dialogue implies to me that there may be various forms of freezing technology known, and that carbon freezing is the crudest and riskiest version. The medically approved version might be a related technology, but not exactly the same thing. So TCW's decision to portray carbon freezing itself as something that was proven reliable decades earlier doesn't quite fit with the dialogue in TESB. It's a retcon of the original intention, which is my point.

It's like the bit about Leia remembering her birth mother, or Luke's father wanting him to have his lightsaber, or the Tantive IV receiving a transmission of the Death Star plans rather than a physical storage medium -- details of dialogue that have been subtly or blatantly retconned in later works. Sure, you can try to concoct in-universe rationalizations for them, but that doesn't change the fact that they are retcons, that a later storyteller interpreted a detail in a different way than the original storytellers probably intended. A story can be analyzed on two distinct levels, in terms of in-universe "reality" or in terms of literary criticism and analysis of the creative process. I'm speaking in the latter sense. And in that mode of analysis, inconsistencies don't have to be swept under the rug and forced to fit; they can and should be acknowledged for what they are, as part of the evolution of a creative work.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm talking about what the writers of The Empire Strikes Back intended in 1982, and the extent to which the TCW episode retcons that. What I'm saying is that TESB pretty clearly suggests that Vader considers this a risky, unproven process, which is the whole reason Han is frozen at all.

It really doesn't. As has already been pointed out by @Reverend upthread, Vader's use of the word "crude" not only implies the need for testing, but also suggests a comparison to a preexisting set-up that is less crude and more capable. Furthermore, by Vader's use of the word "should," it's not an unproven process.

 

[Ithekro]

Considering this was Vader's idea for freezing Luke for transportation to the Emperor, one suspects Vader has a general idea that it should work, since Luke Skywalker is his primary target and the Emperor's prize. Lando bringing up that they don't use this equipment for that, and it could kill Luke has Vader suggest testing it on Captain Solo, to make sure that the Emperor's prize (Luke) isn't damaged. I am not sure if Vader actually had any doubts about the process, or if he was just having fun tormenting Lando at that point.

After Solo is encased, Vader more or less asks for confirmation of Solo's status from Lando, and once confirmed, basically goes, "Good, reset it for Skywalker. Fett, take Solo. Commander, take the Princess to my ship." He's basically being a dick with Lando and enjoying it while getting himself ready to face Luke.

That Luke managed to escape the initial trap, and thus make the preparations unneeded throws another rock at Solo in carbonite.

At Lucasfilm headquarters, there are two characters encased in carbonite. Han Solo, and Jar Jar Binks.

 

[Tuskin38]

and Jar Jar Binks

Oh wow you're right. That is amazing.

Apparently it was made by a Fan and George liked it. There is also a Gungan in carbonite in Force Unleashed 1 that you can bend and mold using the force heh.

 

[Ithekro]

He's preserved for future generations.

 

[Tuskin38]

According to Wookieepedia, the one in Force Unleashed is a nod to that one.

 

[Xerxes82]

I've already quoted Lando's exact words that argue otherwise -- "We only use this facility for carbon freezing. If you put him in there, it might kill him." That does not suggest that carbon freezing in general is safe but this particular facility is a crude form of it; it's saying outright that carbon freezing, per se, might kill someone.

Lando's exact words don't argue otherwise at all. All they actually say is that the facility in question might kill Luke if used the way Vader intends. Nothing in his statement, on it's surface, explains the source of the risk in regards to either the equipment or the process itself. Also note the particular construction of Lando's words. What Vader is attempting isn't carbon freezing, per se. It's nearer to medical stasis.

And perhaps there is a medical or other stasis process that is relatively similar in method to carbon freezing. Which would just mean that Lando is complaining that his equipment isn't designed to do what Vader wants to use it for, not that what Vader wants to use it for is somehow suspect in and of itself. Keep in mind as well that absolutely nobody, either in ESB or later in ROTJ so much as bats an eye at the fact that Han is a brick. Nor is there the slightest doubt that he can be safely and successfully revived.

Remember, Vader isn't reaching for this plan. This isn't some desperate, last second gamble, nor is it portrayed as such. Vader has a plan, which the characters in the film itself seem to think is quite sound. They certainly take it seriously and treat it as likely to entrap Luke.

 

[Christopher]

Also note the particular construction of Lando's words. What Vader is attempting isn't carbon freezing, per se. It's nearer to medical stasis.

Which is exactly the point I'm making. Later SW fiction seems to assume that carbon freezing is the default, proven method used for medical stasis, but what I'm saying is basically the same thing you're saying -- that the scene in Empire indicates that carbon freezing is something else that Vader is adapting for medical stasis and that isn't ideal for that purpose.

Remember, Vader isn't reaching for this plan. This isn't some desperate, last second gamble, nor is it portrayed as such.

I never said anything of the sort. I merely pointed out what the movie itself makes very explicit: That the characters were uncertain that a human could survive carbon-freezing, and so Vader used Han as a guinea pig to make sure. Uncertainty doesn't mean desperation. It just means that the procedure is not trusted to be safe, that Vader is taking a gamble by using a potentially dangerous process.

Vader has a plan, which the characters in the film itself seem to think is quite sound. They certainly take it seriously and treat it as likely to entrap Luke.

Which characters, exactly, think it's quite sound?

LANDO
Lord Vader, we only use this
facility for carbon freezing. If
you put him in there, it might
kill him.
VADER
I do not want the Emperor's prize
damaged. We will test it... on
Captain Solo.
Lando's face registers dismay.

BOBA FETT
What if he doesn't survive? He's
worth a lot to me.
VADER
The Empire will compensate you
if he dies. Put him in!

http://whills.nu/5/emp-2.html

That's two characters who object to the risk Vader is taking by using carbon freezing on a human. And as I've already quoted, though Threepio has faith in the durability of carbonite, he's iffy on whether Han can survive being frozen in it. I looked through every line of that sequence in the script (which is adjusted to be accurate to the final film), and the only character who expresses confidence in Vader's scheme is Vader himself. And even Vader is uncertain enough that he feels the need to test it first.


Look, let's come at it another way. Whether or not this is a well-established use of carbon freezing, it's clearly understood to be a risk to those who are subjected to it. A lot of known and established practices are known to be dangerous, like major surgery or building skyscrapers. Even if they happen frequently, they have a significant risk of being fatal. Clearly carbon freezing falls into that category of known dangers, or there would've been no need to "test it... on Captain Solo."

So my problem with the Clone Wars episode is that a whole bunch of people are carbon frozen, and 100% of them survive, and it's all very easy for them to come out of it (no short-term blindness or any other side effects). There was lip service paid to it being a dangerous and crazy plan on Anakin's part, but in execution, it seemed quite casual and easy, and that ease undermines the impact of the sequence in TESB. I think it would've been better if the risks of it had been played up more in the episode -- if maybe one or two of the clone troopers hadn't survived, and if maybe one or two members of the strike team had suffered aftereffects of the freezing.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think it would've been better if the risks of it had been played up more in the episode -- if maybe one or two of the clone troopers hadn't survived, and if maybe one or two members of the strike team had suffered aftereffects of the freezing.

There's no reason why they should have. It's perfectly reasonable to suppose that the Jedi had access to the best equipment in the Republic, and it could have been in perfect adjustment. There need not be any reason for it to fail for any of them in that instance, unlike, say, in a different instance when something was out of adjustment, some component had insufficient grade, etc.

Honestly, it's like you aren't even following or bothering to read what other people are saying. All of your objections have been answered by the other posters here, and a lot of us arguing the other side are saying the same thing or variations of similar themes.

 

[Ithekro]

I would assume that the hibernation sickness Solo experienced was due to the long term nature of his captivity. Many months to nearly a year by some estimates. Anakin and the Clones were in there for maybe a day or two.

As it was some of Clones reacted poorly, and all the Jedi were majorly stiff coming out, and not quite with it for a moment or two. Anakin and Ahsoka having a very casual conversation (before noticing that one of them wasn't suppose to be there), and Obi-wan not quite sure if his eyes were working properly at first. I seem to recall a few of the Clones got sick right after getting out, but were ready to go in short order. This could be more due to them being Clone...genetically enhanced humans, and the rest being Jedi. Han Solo, was neither of those things.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Oh, yeah. The fact that Leia told Han what he was suffering from and what his prognosis was only reinforces the idea that they were dealing with a known technique.

 

[Reverend]

Exactly. You can tell from the way she says it that she fully expected him to suffer from this. Indeed, the fact that it's called "hybernation sickness" not "carbonite poisoning" or something says that this is (all together now!) *a known technique*.

Also note, Lando says in tESB that Han isn't just alive, but "in perfect hibernation" (emphasis on 'perfect'.)

 

[Christopher]

says that this is (all together now!) *a known technique*.

As I already said, just because a technique is known does not automatically mean it is 100% safe. Some things are known to be dangerous. Once more, the entire reason Solo was frozen at all was because he was expendable to Vader, so Vader was willing to risk killing him to find out if the procedure would be safe.

And as I also already said, it's probably a mistake to assume that carbon freezing is the only form of hibernation known to exist. As Xerxes said, it seemed more like Vader was trying to adapt carbon freezing to function as a makeshift alternative to normal medical stasis. If it had been the routine form of stasis, Lando and Fett wouldn't have objected so strongly, and using Solo as a guinea pig would not have been necessary. It's like, ohh, MacGyver rigging up a makeshift defibrillator from a car battery and metal spatulas. It's a cruder way of pulling off a technique that's normally done using more refined and specialized equipment, and since it is makeshift, there's no guarantee that it will be safe.

 

[JD]

I just watched the scene again on youtube, and it seemed to me that Lando's objection was to using that specific facility, not to the process they were using. Basically that they were using an industrial facility on a person, which was not how it was meant to be used.
I'm honestly not sure which side of the argument that brings down on, but it was my objective interpretation.

 

[Tuskin38]

The only way to find out the truth would be to ask the writer.