Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

[Violet.Phoenix]

I think that when it comes to killing off major players in a series it really depends on the series itself and the overarcing story within it. It's true that Janeway's purpose was to get her crew home, something that was driven across through the entirety of Voyager.

That being said, I have previously stated that I did not like her death in the novel "Before Dishonor". Some believe it to be heroic; I disagree. I do want Janeway back, but others do not. There is no universal truth in this because we are all stating our opinions, some of which clearly differ. If Janeway comes back, I will be very pleased. If not, I can live with the fact that Kirsten Beyer will continue to write great Voyager stories with the rest of the crew, who have been touched by Janeway and how she lead them home.

 

[rfmcdpei]

I think that when it comes to killing off major players in a series it really depends on the series itself and the overarcing story within it. It's true that Janeway's purpose was to get her crew home, something that was driven across through the entirety of Voyager.

That being said, I have previously stated that I did not like her death in the novel "Before Dishonor". Some believe it to be heroic; I disagree. I do want Janeway back, but others do not. There is no universal truth in this because we are all stating our opinions, some of which clearly differ. If Janeway comes back, I will be very pleased. If not, I can live with the fact that Kirsten Beyer will continue to write great Voyager stories with the rest of the crew, who have been touched by Janeway and how she lead them home.

There were a lot of problems involved with the execution of Before Dishonor, characterization flaws included. It did seem credible on the face of it, given Janeway's propensity to take risks with the Borg.

 

[Relayer1]

I have never liked Janeway much and don't really miss her, but as I'd like Data to return, I can't complain about people wanting her back.

I wouldn't be upset if is done well...

 

[Shon T'Hara]

I hate Janeway and even I want to see her come back.

So she can die again.

Tuvix -- Never forget!

 

[zarkon]

I often wonder what was worse - the personal murder of tuvix or the impersonal destruction of an entire timelines worth of people that she didn't even give much thought too.

the mass murder I guess.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

It did seem credible on the face of it, given Janeway's propensity to take risks with the Borg.

True. Janeway was assimilated twice in the series. Part of Before Dishonor was the Q trying to teach Janeway some humility- that she wasn't indestructible or able to be in control of all situations.

I don't know how anyone can consider Janeway's death heroic. Her death was brought on by her own arrogance and pride. Her assimilation, which was the result of her unwillingness to listen to the Q, resulted in the loss of many lives, ships, and Pluto!!!

 

[Forevertj]

Forevertj, I strongly disagree with you, for reasons Christopher has already outlined. But wherever we stand on this issue, I just want to wish you a speedy and complete recovery!

I called the Doctor and was told that he saw the X-rays and that my sternum had swelling. I don't know what an obvious "knot" in one place has to do with overall swelling of the complete sternum, but I was told not to worry and to come back in two weeks if it doesn't go away or shrink.

I honestly don't remember it happening. That is why it scared me. It feels like solid rock (bone in this case) not a mass of anything else. I was told in two weeks he would order a cat scan if it didn't go away. So since he didn't order it immediately, that is a good sign.

So since I might live (joking) I am here to argue!!!

 

[Forevertj]

I was hoping I could make a statement and that would be it. I am not here to argue. I don't have the energy or desire to argue. We are fans. If you don't like what a fan says, ignore them, but don't challenge them. This is a fan forum, not a debate forum.

...it's a forum

the clue is in the name

I know that. I just don't want to argue.

I hope the story doesn't offend anyone: Meaning, make them not want to read any more.

 

[Forevertj]

I was hoping I could make a statement and that would be it. I am not here to argue. I don't have the energy or desire to argue. We are fans. If you don't like what a fan says, ignore them, but don't challenge them. This is a fan forum, not a debate forum.

You are quite entitled to your opinion. No one can say you are wrong for wanting Janeway back - that is how you feel, but it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

This is a forum for discussion - not a space that you can justy make a statement and leave it, people will have DIFFERENT opinions. If you say something, you have to be prepared to support it...

The thing is, I don't challenge anyone's opinion. I simply expected the same in return. I never do that kind of thing. It's pointless to argue on a forum. I let people say what they want to and if they don't agree, I move on. what good would it do for me to challenge them? It's not like they are going to say, "Gee, TJ, you are right, I am sorry". That's not going to happen, so why bother?


I think the problem is that just because you can voice your opinion it doesn't mean that you can be hassled over it. I love Star Trek. Gene would not like to see fans arguing over it. I know he wouldn't. He wanted the future to be free of all the bad things humans do. I would imagine hostile internet arguments would be another thing he would to do away with.


Remember, just because you don't feel you are hassling someone, doesn't mean that someone is not feeling hassled. That's why I never argue. I respect you all. Why wouldn't I?

 

[captcalhoun]

try not to multi-post. the mods don't appreciate it.

 

[Forevertj]

try not to multi-post. the mods don't appreciate it.

How can I respond to seperate post without quoting them? Did I do something other than that? Ok, I will leave this thread then. I am sorry.

How else do you respond to more than one person?

 

[Defcon]

Beside the Quote button is a multiquote button. With that you can "collect" multiple quotes you want to respond to.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Forevertj, I strongly disagree with you, for reasons Christopher has already outlined. But wherever we stand on this issue, I just want to wish you a speedy and complete recovery!

I called the Doctor and was told that he saw the X-rays and that my sternum had swelling. I don't know what an obvious "knot" in one place has to do with overall swelling of the complete sternum, but I was told not to worry and to come back in two weeks if it doesn't go away or shrink.

I honestly don't remember it happening. That is why it scared me. It feels like solid rock (bone in this case) not a mass of anything else. I was told in two weeks he would order a cat scan if it didn't go away. So since he didn't order it immediately, that is a good sign.

So since I might live (joking) I am here to argue!!!

Yay!

 

[Relayer1]

I was hoping I could make a statement and that would be it. I am not here to argue. I don't have the energy or desire to argue. We are fans. If you don't like what a fan says, ignore them, but don't challenge them. This is a fan forum, not a debate forum.

You are quite entitled to your opinion. No one can say you are wrong for wanting Janeway back - that is how you feel, but it is JUST YOUR OPINION.

This is a forum for discussion - not a space that you can justy make a statement and leave it, people will have DIFFERENT opinions. If you say something, you have to be prepared to support it...

The thing is, I don't challenge anyone's opinion. I simply expected the same in return. I never do that kind of thing. It's pointless to argue on a forum. I let people say what they want to and if they don't agree, I move on. what good would it do for me to challenge them? It's not like they are going to say, "Gee, TJ, you are right, I am sorry". That's not going to happen, so why bother?


I think the problem is that just because you can voice your opinion it doesn't mean that you can be hassled over it. I love Star Trek. Gene would not like to see fans arguing over it. I know he wouldn't. He wanted the future to be free of all the bad things humans do. I would imagine hostile internet arguments would be another thing he would to do away with.


Remember, just because you don't feel you are hassling someone, doesn't mean that someone is not feeling hassled. That's why I never argue. I respect you all. Why wouldn't I?

You're very non confrontational - I like that 'live and let live' approach. I'm just not used to it on the internet !

There's a lot of what I'd call 'banter' and most of it is good natured. Pretty much any post can be a starting point - for instance your comment about Gene - I respect what he started, but firmly believe Trek got better when he was sidelined - DS9 wouldn't have happened at all without the character conflict he avoided so carefully.

I will, however, try not to 'bite' when you post, after all, I think you're probably a better human being than I am...

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

I think that when it comes to killing off major players in a series it really depends on the series itself and the overarcing story within it. It's true that Janeway's purpose was to get her crew home, something that was driven across through the entirety of Voyager.

That being said, I have previously stated that I did not like her death in the novel "Before Dishonor". Some believe it to be heroic; I disagree. I do want Janeway back, but others do not. There is no universal truth in this because we are all stating our opinions, some of which clearly differ. If Janeway comes back, I will be very pleased. If not, I can live with the fact that Kirsten Beyer will continue to write great Voyager stories with the rest of the crew, who have been touched by Janeway and how she lead them home.

There were a lot of problems involved with the execution of Before Dishonor, characterization flaws included. It did seem credible on the face of it, given Janeway's propensity to take risks with the Borg.

I will agree that some of the characterizations didn't feel quite right, and personally I felt like it was just too much all in one book. Along with that, there were some scientific things that irked me because of how implausible they seemed.

I'll admit that it does seem credible for Janeway's risk-taking to come back and bite her in the ass, but being turned into the Borg Queen? Nuh uh.

I hate Janeway and even I want to see her come back.

So she can die again.

Tuvix -- Never forget!

Come on, dying once is more than enough in my books.

It did seem credible on the face of it, given Janeway's propensity to take risks with the Borg.

True. Janeway was assimilated twice in the series. Part of Before Dishonor was the Q trying to teach Janeway some humility- that she wasn't indestructible or able to be in control of all situations.

I don't know how anyone can consider Janeway's death heroic. Her death was brought on by her own arrogance and pride. Her assimilation, which was the result of her unwillingness to listen to the Q, resulted in the loss of many lives, ships, and Pluto!!!

Technically Janeway was only assimilated once, as the second time was her future self being assimilated in "Endgame". Yes, Janeway did have a bit of a superiority complex, but think about where she was and the circumstances she was in; she had to be assertive and determined. She wasn't going to be able to settle everything by a game of 3-D chess for pete's sake!

I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?

That being said, I do not hold Janeway responsible for what happened after her assmilation; that was the action of the Borg Collective using her knowledge to break through the Federation's stronghold. Janeway was not in control of anything after her assmilation; she was a prisoner in her own mind being held there by the consciousness of the Borg Queen while they used all that she was to try and destroy the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?

Because despite that, at the pivotal moment she was able to reassert her own will and hold back the will of the Borg long enough for the plan to destroy them to work. If she hadn't fought back at the end, then the Borg would've won. If she wasn't heroic because of that, then Picard wasn't heroic when he said "Sleep" at the climax of "The Best of Both Worlds." It's the same principle, except that Picard got off easy.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?

Because despite that, at the pivotal moment she was able to reassert her own will and hold back the will of the Borg long enough for the plan to destroy them to work. If she hadn't fought back at the end, then the Borg would've won. If she wasn't heroic because of that, then Picard wasn't heroic when he said "Sleep" at the climax of "The Best of Both Worlds." It's the same principle, except that Picard got off easy.

A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine. I still don't see it as heroic, but I suppose in this case that is a difference of opinion. And I will honestly admit that I am a little biased as it is Janeway, so it may be difficult to sway my opinion.

 

[Sci]

I do not consider Janeway's death heroic at all. I can see how some people might consider it as such, but to me she had lost so much of herself in asimilation that there was almost nothing left to sacrifice. She was turned into the very thing that she despised and swore to protect the Federation against, how is that heroic?

Because despite that, at the pivotal moment she was able to reassert her own will and hold back the will of the Borg long enough for the plan to destroy them to work. If she hadn't fought back at the end, then the Borg would've won. If she wasn't heroic because of that, then Picard wasn't heroic when he said "Sleep" at the climax of "The Best of Both Worlds." It's the same principle, except that Picard got off easy.

A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine.

And Picard's "Sleep" was with the aid of Data. I'd still call both Captain Picard and Admiral Janeway pretty damn heroic for overcoming mental Borg programming -- which we saw firsthand in Destiny: Lost Souls is incredibly horrific -- to do that.

 

[Christopher]

A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine. I still don't see it as heroic, but I suppose in this case that is a difference of opinion. And I will honestly admit that I am a little biased as it is Janeway, so it may be difficult to sway my opinion.

Janeway made an almost impossible effort of will out of love for her crewmate and protegee, held back an unstoppable force and willingly sacrificed her life in the process, and thereby saved the Earth and probably the entire Federation from annihilation -- and you don't consider that heroic? I'm hard-pressed to imagine what you would.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

That being said, I do not hold Janeway responsible for what happened after her assmilation; that was the action of the Borg Collective using her knowledge to break through the Federation's stronghold.

Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment. That act of arrogance made possible the actions that followed. Had she listened to Q, or simply had the good sense not to board the cube, none of the following actions would have occurred.

I think I understand why Starfleet likes to keep their admirals behind desks.