Star Trek Voyager: The Eternal Tide by Kirsten Beyer

[F. King Daniel]

Janeway has more experience with the Borg than anyone else in Starfleet. Her going makes more sense than you're admitting.

Besides, if she sent a gaggle of hapless nobodies over in her sted, wouldn't things have proceeded largely identically, except for the probability that Hapless Nobody Queen wouldn't have been able to stall the Borg at the critical moment, thus dooming Earth?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Janeway could have remained on the Einstein and provided guidance to the away team on the ship. There is a reason captains aren't supposed to be on boarding parties. If captains should remain away from potentially hazardous situations away from their ship, I'd say all the more admirals shouldn't be on boarding parties. Had hapless nobody been assimilated, the Borg wouldn't have gained access to the critical information in Janeway's brain. Protecting that knowledge is one reason why captains and admirals don't put themselves in hazardous situations. The flag officers hang back, not out of cowardice but because they are needed to direct and because their death or capture would be devastating (as it was).

Back to the heoric acts of Picard and Janeway after their assimilations, I am having difficulty seeing their parts in destroying the Borg as heroic or courageous. I'm not questioning whether either of them ARE heroes but those singular acts, while vital and the right thing to do, don't seem courageous to me.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

A valid point, Christopher, but that was also with the aid of Seven of Nine. I still don't see it as heroic, but I suppose in this case that is a difference of opinion. And I will honestly admit that I am a little biased as it is Janeway, so it may be difficult to sway my opinion.

Janeway made an almost impossible effort of will out of love for her crewmate and protegee, held back an unstoppable force and willingly sacrificed her life in the process, and thereby saved the Earth and probably the entire Federation from annihilation -- and you don't consider that heroic? I'm hard-pressed to imagine what you would.

Okay, I do see your point there. Personally, I do not like how her sacrifice came out of becoming the Borg Queen, and that is probably overshadowing the rest of it. If I look at this completely objectively, despite her assmilation, then yes, it is a heroic sacrifice for her to make. However, it still came with her being turned into the face of the enemy.

In answer to what I find heroic: I find it admirable when people stand for their principles in the face of adversity.

That being said, I do not hold Janeway responsible for what happened after her assmilation; that was the action of the Borg Collective using her knowledge to break through the Federation's stronghold.

Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment. That act of arrogance made possible the actions that followed. Had she listened to Q, or simply had the good sense not to board the cube, none of the following actions would have occurred.

I think I understand why Starfleet likes to keep their admirals behind desks.

As KingDaniel said, Janeway had an incredible amount of experience with the Borg, which makes sense as to why she went on that mission. What I don't understand is why it was just a science vessel going in to investigate a Borg cube, despite it being believed to be disabled.

Of course she could have just stayed on the Einstein, but that would not be in character for her. Janeway goes into these scenarioes headfirst; she doesn't sit on the sidelines. When she rescued Seven of Nine from the Borg she went into the Borg Unicomplex; she wasn't sitting in the Delta Flyer guiding the away team.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

That may not be her style, however it is regs. As a flag officer, she doesn't have the liberties she had as captain alone in the DQ. If she is incapable of comprehending that, she shouldn't have been promoted.

I do agree with you that Starfleet should have sent more resources than the Einstein. In that sense, Janeway's being compromised was a failure of the entire admiralty to not alocate proper resources for the mission.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.

 

[Stephen!]

Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment.

Was it though? It's stated in "Full Circle", that she had her reasons for doing it, because she didn't want her crew being sent back to the Delta Quadrant, and that, by investigating the cube, she hoped to convince Starfleet Command that such a mission wasn't necessary.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

I do agree with you that Starfleet should have sent more resources than the Einstein. In that sense, Janeway's being compromised was a failure of the entire admiralty to not alocate proper resources for the mission.

Exactly, I find it strange that the admirality would underestimate something like that.

Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.

Good point, but then what about the crew of the Einstein? Could it not also be said that they were backing up the Admiral?

Janeway cannot be held responsible for her actions after her assimilation. However, going into a situation where she had been warned not to go and had no good reason to be was poor judgment.

Was it though? It's stated in "Full Circle", that she had her reasons for doing it, because she didn't want her crew being sent back to the Delta Quadrant, and that, by investigating the cube, she hoped to convince Starfleet Command that such a mission wasn't necessary.

I remember this, and it feels like Janeway was forced into a sort of corner between trying to keep her old crew safe in the Alpha Quadrant, and pressing forward with the mission. Yes it was a dangerous mission, but if Janeway didn't do it then her crew would have been sent back to the Delta Quadrant - they very place she spent seven years getting them home from.

Yet, they were still sent back there anyways...

 

[Elias Vaughn]

Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.

Good point, but then what about the crew of the Einstein? Could it not also be said that they were backing up the Admiral?

They were, but they did not have nearly the experience dealing with the Borg that Voyager did. Chakotay insisting he lead the away team or Seven speculating about the cube's capabilities might have saved Janeway's life.

Then again, might not, but she'd have had a better chance with her crew at her side.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Really, her biggest mistake was in forgetting that every time she'd faced the Borg in the past, she only won with the crew of Voyager backing her up. Going to the Borg cube to see it herself was understandable and in character, going without Chakotay and crew was not.

Good point, but then what about the crew of the Einstein? Could it not also be said that they were backing up the Admiral?

They were, but they did not have nearly the experience dealing with the Borg that Voyager did. Chakotay insisting he lead the away team or Seven speculating about the cube's capabilities might have saved Janeway's life.

Then again, might not, but she'd have had a better chance with her crew at her side.

I do agree there, especially in the case of Seven's knowledge of the Borg. Janeway's experience with the Borg pales in comparison to Seven's knowledge and understanding of them.

An interesting though just occurred to me: if Chakotay had lead the away team, and all the team members were male, would there be a Borg King if they were all assimilated?

Somehow I don't think the bald look would suit Chuckles very well.

 

[Christopher]

An interesting though just occurred to me: if Chakotay had lead the away team, and all the team members were male, would there be a Borg King if they were all assimilated?

No, just a Borg Drag Queen.

 

[Sci]

An interesting though just occurred to me: if Chakotay had lead the away team, and all the team members were male, would there be a Borg King if they were all assimilated?

No, just a Borg Drag Queen.

Answering the question in a little bit more earnest...

Both J.M. Dillard's Resistance and Christopher's own Greater than the Sum established that a Borg Queen is always created out of a female drone through the implementation of something called the Royal Protocol, transforming the female drone into a Queen capable of regulating and controlling the Collective.

It's unclear whether this is because of biological requirements or because of Borg cultural practices. However, the revelations in Star Trek: Destiny strongly imply...

Spoiler: Destiny

... that this is at least in part because the Caeliar who first fused her consciousness with three Humans in order to form the proto-Borg Collective was female, and the Collective is essentially imitating her when it creates a Queen.

Meanwhile, Greg Cox's Mirror Universe novel The Worst of Both Worlds (from 2007's Glass Empires anthology) establishes...

Spoiler: The Worst of Both Worlds

...that the Mirror Universe Borg Collective is led by a Borg King.

ETA:

Spoiler: The Worst of Both Worlds," "Star Trek: Destiny

Presumably, this would imply that a similar chain of events leading to the creation of the Mirror Universe Borg occurred. My speculation would be that the I.S.S. Columbia was trapped in orbit of Erigol as in the Prime Universe, but that the MACO contingent that ended up being sent back in time to the planet Arehaz in 4527 BCE ended up being fused together with a male Caeliar rather than a female one -- perhaps leading to the first monarchal drone being Gage Pembleton rather than (one presumes) Kiona Thayer.

 

[Christopher]

Both J.M. Dillard's Resistance and Christopher's own Greater than the Sum established that a Borg Queen is always created out of a female drone through the implementation of something called the Royal Protocol, transforming the female drone into a Queen capable of regulating and controlling the Collective.

Actually Resistance assumed that Borg drones were androgynous (in GTTS I interpreted this to mean the kind of scratch-grown incubated drones seen in TNG rather than the assimilated kind dominant in VGR) and a special "royal jelly" hormonal treatment was used to turn them female for Queenification (basilogenesis would be the technical term). I figured that was if they didn't have an assimilated female drone available. As for the Royal Protocol that imbued the drone with the Queen persona and abilities, that was established in Homecoming/The Farther Shore by Christie Golden.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Yet, they were still sent back there anyways...

And it has worked out well, especially with Kristen M-F Beyer writing it.

It makes sense to go back, make sure the UFP's greatest enemy is indeed gone, scavange for technology and fulfill Starfleet's charter-explore.

It only makes sense for Voyager and her crew to go. Intrepids are uniquely suited for long-term exploration, Voyager is known in the DQ (though sometimes that is a bad thing), and its crew has prior experience.

Plus, now they have the ability to come home so they aren't stranded. With the Bog gone, the ship supported by a fleet (and fighters), and a means of regular relief the crew is in a much better state. I honestly think what Beyer has done is the best thing they could have done with the series.

 

[captcalhoun]

the Bog

 

[zarkon]

right down the tube

 

[Sci]

Both J.M. Dillard's Resistance and Christopher's own Greater than the Sum established that a Borg Queen is always created out of a female drone through the implementation of something called the Royal Protocol, transforming the female drone into a Queen capable of regulating and controlling the Collective.

Actually Resistance assumed that Borg drones were androgynous (in GTTS I interpreted this to mean the kind of scratch-grown incubated drones seen in TNG rather than the assimilated kind dominant in VGR) and a special "royal jelly" hormonal treatment was used to turn them female for Queenification (basilogenesis would be the technical term). I figured that was if they didn't have an assimilated female drone available. As for the Royal Protocol that imbued the drone with the Queen persona and abilities, that was established in Homecoming/The Farther Shore by Christie Golden.

Ah, thanks for the clarifications!

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Yet, they were still sent back there anyways...

And it has worked out well, especially with Kristen M-F Beyer writing it.

It makes sense to go back, make sure the UFP's greatest enemy is indeed gone, scavange for technology and fulfill Starfleet's charter-explore.

It only makes sense for Voyager and her crew to go. Intrepids are uniquely suited for long-term exploration, Voyager is known in the DQ (though sometimes that is a bad thing), and its crew has prior experience.

Plus, now they have the ability to come home so they aren't stranded. With the Bog gone, the ship supported by a fleet (and fighters), and a means of regular relief the crew is in a much better state. I honestly think what Beyer has done is the best thing they could have done with the series.

Apologies if I came across badly with that phrase. I meant it in the sense that despite Janeway trying to not have her crew sent back and going on the mission, they still went anyways.

I do agree that Kirsten Beyer's novels have been fantastic and thoroughly enjoyable. It does make sense for them with all the experience that they had in the Delta Quadrant, much like Janeway's experience with the Borg made her a valuable asset to the Federation. It is much better that they have the ability to get back home in a reasonable amount of time as well as other ships to accompany them.

The Bog gone as well? Hmm, I hadn't realized that an intergalactic swamp was threatening the Federation.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

The galaxy has a briar patch so why not a bog?

 

[Markonian]

Cadets Icheb and Naomi Wildman?

Sorry if this question has already been tackled*, but: Is it known whether Icheb and Naomi Wildman will get a mention/scene in The Eternal Tide?

With Icheb's entry in 2378, he is about to graduate in 2382 and in Full Circle The Doctor tells Seven that Naomi enters the Academy in 2382.

I'd love to see them grow up and become Starfleet crewmembers of Voyager. It would be fitting and bring them... full circle.

* I used the search thread/forum function to ascertain it wasn't mentioned already.

 

[Mage]

Re: Cadets Icheb and Naomi Wildman?

Sorry if this question has already been tackled*, but: Is it known whether Icheb and Naomi Wildman will get a mention/scene in The Eternal Tide?

With Icheb's entry in 2378, he is about to graduate in 2382 and in Full Circle The Doctor tells Seven that Naomi enters the Academy in 2382.

I'd love to see them grow up and become Starfleet crewmembers of Voyager. It would be fitting and bring them... full circle.

* I used the search thread/forum function to ascertain it wasn't mentioned already.

I suppose it would be fun to have them there, but it would be a bit odd for Starfleet to assign a junior officer, straight out of the Academy, to a high profile mission like that.
I know people will say that Harry Kim was made a senior officer straight out of the Academy (kinda bugs me anyway) but Voyager's first mission was to be three weeks long, chasing down a Maquis ship. Not a big profile assignment really.

And I doubt that Starfleet, with so many new cadets each year, would feel sentimentel and assign Icheb to Voyager/Full Circle. Especially considering the logistics involved into getting him there. Sure, QSD is pretty fast, but also still experimental technology. I doubt they would send a ship out there to deliver one ensign.
And it's made clear that Full Circle is a long term mission, meaning long term assignment. They don't rotate personal every few months for something like that. You sign on for the full three years.

What I'm curious about, is Barclay. He was transported back from the DQ in the novel IFM. And I'll miss him sorely in the new Voyager novels.