Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x08 - "Under the Cloak of War"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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No, that's not what's going on here. Dak'Rah egging him on isn't starting the fight in this context at all. That's nothing compared to the atrocities that he committed. M'Benga wouldn't have knifed him the heart had that been all there was to it. And M'Benga wouldn't be able to tell Pike with a straight faced authenticity that he didn't start the fight if it was only about him being egged on. He's clearly referring to the events of the war.
What an excellent heartfelt review. You touched on a lot of things I got out of my second viewing but from the perspective of someone who's served. This was such a complex uneasy episode. I love that Star Trek is back and gets to do what it always did so well.
I liked it. I'm going with a 9.
Thank-you for pointing it out. I have to admit when I see a post that takes me three screens to scroll through I often just glance and skip past. Worth a second look.
In S1E1, the landing party gets on the transporter wearing their Starfleet uniforms and materializes on the planet wearing various types of local fashion.
I have to give this one another watch. The sparring and fight scenes kept throwing me out of the story because they looked fake, which surprised me because Babs is a trained fighter. (Also didn’t help that they were filmed in such a way that it was hard to follow the action—I assume that was to keep a PG rating.) Maybe I’m just so used to action movie fight choreography that I can’t recognize what realistic fighting looks like.
Ugh, Disco Klingons.
I don’t think this was quite on the level of DS9’s “Nor the Battle Too Strong”, “The Siege of AR-558” or “It’s Only a Paper Moon” but they were telling stories in a different way and at a different time. This episode is post-war looking back, those were told during the two wars. Plus with streaming you can get a bit more into the harshness.
That said, it was a really good episode. But I’m not sure about the ending. I don’t have a problem with M’Benga killing the guy but something about the way it all wraps up felt…off. I can’t put my finger on why though. Maybe we needed a bit more with Pike either throughout the episode or extend the scene at the end. Maybe more wrap up with Chapel and M’Benga. I dunno.
I think the episode suffers a bit from the dubious decision from Discovery that the Discoprise was not involved in the war effort. At points it felt like the crew had moved on a bit too easy. Like it was real easy for Uhura to dismiss Ortegas’ qualms about the guy.
On a lighter note…it is kinda funny to think of M’Benga as Hawkeye (or Col. Blake based on his fishing cap from last season) and Christine as Hot Lips Houlihan.
I’ll go 8/10. But it’s a high 8…like 8.6-8.7.
I don’t think this was quite on the level of DS9’s “Nor the Battle Too Strong”, “The Siege of AR-558” or “It’s Only a Paper Moon” but they were telling stories in a different way and at a different time. This episode is post-war looking back, those were told during the two wars. Plus with streaming you can get a bit more into the harshness.
That said, it was a really good episode. But I’m not sure about the ending. I don’t have a problem with M’Benga killing the guy but something about the way it all wraps up felt…off. I can’t put my finger on why though. Maybe we needed a bit more with Pike either throughout the episode or extend the scene at the end. Maybe more wrap up with Chapel and M’Benga. I dunno.
I think the episode suffers a bit from the dubious decision from Discovery that the Discoprise was not involved in the war effort. At points it felt like the crew had moved on a bit too easy. Like it was real easy for Uhura to dismiss Ortegas’ qualms about the guy.
On a lighter note…it is kinda funny to think of M’Benga as Hawkeye (or Col. Blake based on his fishing cap from last season) and Christine as Hot Lips Houlihan.
I’ll go 8/10. But it’s a high 8…like 8.6-8.7.
If you get to 8.9 sell.
Especially if you watch an episode like "Aid Station," like I just did. A very well done episode that could have taken the show in a much different direction with the characters.
I mean, she was still a cadet.
they did do a couple episodes like Aid Station right. I seem to remember one that was Hawkeye and Potter. And one that was Winchester and Klinger. But in any case, yeah they certainly could have taken the show in a different direction had they chosen to.
and sure Uhura was just a cadet but still, the guy just laid on the charm and everyone rolled over except for the 3 war vets and only Spock really noticed until things got real.
Another great episode. For me not quite as awesome as last week's, so I give this one a 9.
I think this was the most tense episode of SNW and probably the most tense war episode of all of Trek. The Siege of AR-558 is pretty great at it too, but the production values of SNW make it look/feel more realistic. I was audibly exhaling each time the show went to commercial break.
Only disappointment for me was that this wasn't the Ortegas episode we were all promised. And unless she turns out to be a big lover of the musical genre, I guess that only leaves the season finale to give her a spotlight. But that feels more likely to go to Pike and La'an.
Speaking of genres: the "big swings" that SNW's creators and cast talked about endlessly leading up to this season all seem to be about going hard after different genres and going deep on character development/arcs. I appreciate both of those, and they have done very well so far, in my opinion. However, I was kind of hoping they would take bigger swings in terms of concepts or narratives. Maybe they could benefit from a "high-concept" guy - a la Brandon Braga - to come up with some interesting sci-fi concepts or something that really shakes up Starfleet/the Federation. Nothing that breaks canon but some ideas that try to do something really innovative. I liked how "A Quality of Mercy" tried that by doing an alternate take on future facing time travel and would like to see more of that. Something like how "Cause and Effect" was a real mind blower, or how "Year of Hell" could have been a real game changer if they had allowed it to go for a full season as was originally envisioned.
I think this was the most tense episode of SNW and probably the most tense war episode of all of Trek. The Siege of AR-558 is pretty great at it too, but the production values of SNW make it look/feel more realistic. I was audibly exhaling each time the show went to commercial break.
Only disappointment for me was that this wasn't the Ortegas episode we were all promised. And unless she turns out to be a big lover of the musical genre, I guess that only leaves the season finale to give her a spotlight. But that feels more likely to go to Pike and La'an.
Speaking of genres: the "big swings" that SNW's creators and cast talked about endlessly leading up to this season all seem to be about going hard after different genres and going deep on character development/arcs. I appreciate both of those, and they have done very well so far, in my opinion. However, I was kind of hoping they would take bigger swings in terms of concepts or narratives. Maybe they could benefit from a "high-concept" guy - a la Brandon Braga - to come up with some interesting sci-fi concepts or something that really shakes up Starfleet/the Federation. Nothing that breaks canon but some ideas that try to do something really innovative. I liked how "A Quality of Mercy" tried that by doing an alternate take on future facing time travel and would like to see more of that. Something like how "Cause and Effect" was a real mind blower, or how "Year of Hell" could have been a real game changer if they had allowed it to go for a full season as was originally envisioned.
Well since we didn't learn our lesson after Vietnam (first loss since 1812) and just compounded it in Afghanistan, the chances that we learn from Afghanistan are small.
That is not correct. The creators and writers of DS9 never waffled about Dukat. They always presented it as "from Dukat's point of view he feels he justified", but the show itself never supporting that view. Viewers interpreted it that way because Alaimo was such a good badguy, and (face it) because some people are just weird in that they will support the most vile people if they are charismatic or put up a "toughguy" persona. They wrote "Waltz" specifically to make it totally clear to any fans who were supportive of Dukat that he was a maniac and wrong.
Couple of points here. 1) No way was Rah anything as bad as Eichmann. Rah didn't organize a genocide, he was a military commander who committed war crimes (indiscriminate targeting of civilians) in, as far as we know, one major battle in a (shortish) war. 2) While his actions might be considered war crimes by the Federation, and even dishonorable when looked at by the most rigid version of Klingon honor (for example Worf's), even Klingons say "there is nothing more honorable in war than victory". 3) Rah isn't considered a mass murderer by the Klingons. We the viewer assume that at first (because of Ortegas's comments), but the name "Butcher of J'Gal" though it may have been coined by the Federation was adopted by Klingons because Rah defected and claimed to have killed his own men. That is why he is also a "Butcher" to the Klingons, not because he targeted civilians.
I wouldn't say it is impossible that Chapel, either now or in the future, believes that she saw what she said she saw. She has her own PTSD to deal with and a strong bond with M'Benga that could lead her to believe what she wants to believe. Just an idea.
This makes me wonder: is SNW going to end the Chapel/Spock relationship soon (say now, or in season 3?) or keep it an on-again, off-again thing throughout the whole series? We know the powers-that-be are loath to drop will-they/won't-they relationships if they don't have to (TV shows love that tension, even for characters that didn't need it). I personally would appreciate the rest of Chapel's story in SNW to not have to depend on Spock a la TOS.
Something...something mutual trust...something respect.
Yes, they shouldn't have trust him. But, that's the point. It's a difference between Klingons and the Federation that they could try and trust despite past experience to build a measure of cooperation.
If people didn't learn not to invade Russia in the winter I have a feeling you're right.
Probably.
??
I'm asking because what do the Disco Klingons have to do with this episode (other than them being shown from Disco footage in the recap at the beginning)?
I just didn’t like seeing them even in flashbacks. Hate the design, glad they went back to a more traditional look.
As a Niner, I appreciated this war (ish) episode.
I thought it was interesting to juxtapose this episode with "The Wounded" and O'Brien's PTSD. O'Brien never had to face the Cardassian Gul that carried out the Setlik massacre. I wonder how he would have reacted in comparison to M'Benga.
I thought it was interesting to juxtapose this episode with "The Wounded" and O'Brien's PTSD. O'Brien never had to face the Cardassian Gul that carried out the Setlik massacre. I wonder how he would have reacted in comparison to M'Benga.
Ah, yeah I hear ya and I agree.
I wonder if SNW will ever explain why the Klingons looked how they did in Disco, and why they had weird gothic-looking sarcophagus ships back then instead of the warbirds we see in SNW. Not that it really matters, but I'm curious.
My take on the subject is that Pike’s own argument defeated itself. M’Benga, to me, was flat out confessing to Pike without precisely saying the words and Pike knew it. However, Pike’s argument is that a murderer going free if he does good things is superior to a murderer being punished.
So, what the hell is his argument for arresting M’Benga then? M’Benga as a doctor who has saved countless lives and will save countless more. Arresting him would only stop him from doing so. So Pike had no choice but to leave in order not to be a monstrous hypocrite.
(People are also complicated and Pike has his own feelings about “murderers who go free who do great good” with the “Ones who Walk away from Omelas” episode that I’m blanking on the name right now. The “what if I told you he murdered children” was where Pike decided to let it go even if he didn’t want to investigate anyway)
I mean, he absolutely is considered a war criminal....by Klingons. Ortega said that he was called "The Butcher Of J'Gal" and I suspect that is because his atrocities offended their sense of honor. Klingon honor is a moving target but generally they don't consider medics to be noncombatants and civilian infrastructure to viable targets. But they also have rules against indiscriminate slaughter--which J'Gal broke.
So, what the hell is his argument for arresting M’Benga then? M’Benga as a doctor who has saved countless lives and will save countless more. Arresting him would only stop him from doing so. So Pike had no choice but to leave in order not to be a monstrous hypocrite.
(People are also complicated and Pike has his own feelings about “murderers who go free who do great good” with the “Ones who Walk away from Omelas” episode that I’m blanking on the name right now. The “what if I told you he murdered children” was where Pike decided to let it go even if he didn’t want to investigate anyway)
I mean, he absolutely is considered a war criminal....by Klingons. Ortega said that he was called "The Butcher Of J'Gal" and I suspect that is because his atrocities offended their sense of honor. Klingon honor is a moving target but generally they don't consider medics to be noncombatants and civilian infrastructure to viable targets. But they also have rules against indiscriminate slaughter--which J'Gal broke.
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Agreed. I said in my review that they wobbled on the landing. I think the ambiguity of what happened during the final fight with the shift to Chapel's POV was a distraction. You're trying to figure out exactly what happened and it diffuses the tension.
And Pike seemed off right at the end. However, as others have noted, he was probably absorbing what happened and offering support as a friend. And, I'm assuming that the producers want to actually deal with the fallout in a more detailed way later on rather than during a quick wrap-up.
As a MASH fan, I definitely agree. M'Benga even suggested the patented Hawkeye heart massage to save the guy. I'm sure that, among other things, was an intentional callout to the series.
