Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x02 - "Ad Astra Per Aspera"

[Skipper]

Incidentally, while I loved the episode, I hated yet another display of American chauvinism where they assume that some Anglo-Saxon version of the Common Law will obviously be the legal model adopted by all alien races in the Federation.

"Fruit of the poisonous tree": I literally rolled my eyes when I heard it. Its a legal doctrine that virtually exists in the United States. Even in the English courts (and USA adopted a lot of its legal tradition from UK) it doesn't really matter how you obtained the evidences

It matters not how you get it; if you steal it even, it would be admissible in evidence.
R v Leathem (1861) 8 Cox CC 498

(Obviously if you broke the law to obtain evidence you pay the consequences, but only in the USA your unequivocal demonstration that someone is a pedophile serial killer would be ignored for some technicality)

And obviously the trials of the future will be a version of the current American ones, where Defense and Prosecution will make a show of histrionics and rhetorical art and where the search for the truth is the least of their thoughts instead of nice catchphrases and "gotcha! " moments.

Because obviously the Prosecution only cares that the accused is proven guilty, regardless of the truth. Otherwise, they risk not being re-elected (if they were civilians) or not having a career (if they were military).

Ugh!

 

[Skipper]

10 for me.
"Measure of A Man" level great.

I don't know why people hold "Measure of A Man" in so high regard. Sure, the actors are great and compared to the other episodes of the first and second seasons at least it's not completely unwatchable, but the story makes absolutely no sense.

 

[firehawk12]

She is seeking asylum in Starfleet from the Federation. All Starfleet is Federation, but all Federation is not Starfleet. They are not the same thing.

Incidently, that is why they cannot grant her asylum & kick her out. I believe I saw that questioned earlier.

Starfleet is a Federation-backed organization though. Non-Federation citizens can join Starfleet, like Nog, but it's an arm of the Federation. Nog is still a member of the Ferengi 'nation' (or maybe he's Bajoran through his father's marriage).

Presumably when a captain offers asylum to an individual, like say Picard did for the Romulan defector in TNG, they're doing it on behalf of the Federation and affording them the rights and protection of the Federation.

The lawyer referenced prejudices based on everything from race, gender identity, sexuality/love, and religion so I think it's not any one single issue but a little of all of them. Passing as majority status affects many communities, if you have light skin or seem traditionally male/female, if you don't "look Jewish" or wear a hijab, etc.

What's interesting to me about April's speech on upholding the law is: I could see Picard delivering it too, before realizing Riker or Worf or somebody bending/breaking that law was still needed. At least Picard also argued against the law when the planet wanted to kill Wesley for stepping on some flowers. But you know, Captains do choose when not to uphold laws as well.

I don't think April is a huge bigot for his belief in the law but I think it's meant to be seen with some more nuance that sometimes the laws aren't really just.

Oh sure, I agree it's open enough to be interpreted in many ways. And April is basically called a racist at the end of his cross-examination. lol
It's just for me the augmentations are coded very much like taking hormones/puberty blockers or receiving surgery, particularly the criminalization of it.

I'm curious whether seeking asylum is something other Illyrians will be able to do?

It seems like they'd all have the right to claim asylum under this precedent, but again... it's Federation law that they'd be escaping from, so who is providing asylum and protecting them?

We see from the beginning of the episode that the penalty for augmentation is "exile" from the Federation, but it's not clear what that means. Can you still live on Earth/Vulcan/etc but can't use any replicators or get health care? Or do you just get kicked out of Federation space and dropped off at a Klingon outpost?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Question: Why is an augment in Star Fleet okay, but Una's race not... is it simply a matter of disclosure?

I don't know, but maybe it has to do with post-conception genetic modification?

If I understood it correctly, Una was genetically modified after conception, but without her personal consent, in accordance with the customs of her parents' culture. Perhaps La'an's genes are exactly what she inherited, and that is considered acceptable to the Federation.

IIRC, Julian Bashir was also genetically modified after he was conceived.

 

[JvG]

"Fruit of the poisonous tree": I literally rolled my eyes when I heard it. Its a legal doctrine that virtually exists in the United States. Even in the English courts (and USA adopted a lot of its legal tradition from UK) it doesn't really matter how you obtained the evidences

This is certainly not true. The "fruits from the poisonous tree' doctrine is used in criminal cases here in the Netherlands and I am pretty sure it is applied in some form or another in Germany as well. You might be right about the UK (I don't know, I only have a masters degree in Dutch criminal law), but its applicability and use is certainly more widespread than just the US.

 

[Skipper]

This is certainly not true. The "fruits from the poisonous tree' doctrine is used in criminal cases here in the Netherlands and I am pretty sure it is applied in some form or another in Germany as well. You might be right about the UK (I don't know, I only have a masters degree in Dutch criminal law), but its applicability and use is certainly more widespread than just the US.

I stand corrected. I used the Wikipedia page as a source and every other nation mentioned doesn't have this doctrine. But the point remains. It is an absolutely minority legal doctrine in the systems of various nations, but for some unknown reason it will become a kind of absolute truth among the various alien species of the future.

ETA I read the German page about the doctrine and it doesn't seem to me such a draconian enforcement as that in America (I'm not a legal expert!)

 

[Borgminister]

I don't know, but maybe it has to do with post-conception genetic modification?

If I understood it correctly, Una was genetically modified after conception, but without her personal consent, in accordance with the customs of her parents' culture. Perhaps La'an's genes are exactly what she inherited, and that is considered acceptable to the Federation.

IIRC, Julian Bashir was also genetically modified after he was conceived.

That could be... it's why Measure of a Man was a bit better--no ambiguity about what was being discriminated against, AI versus human. Too many moving parts to be a classic, in my opinion. Still a solid outing though...

 

[Skipper]

That could be... it's why Measure of a Man was a bit better--no ambiguity about what was being discriminated against, AI versus human. Too many moving parts to be a classic, in my opinion. Still a solid outing though...

Measure of a Man has a lot of ambiguity. Try to explain:

• What exactly Data was accused of
• Why was he acquitted

And you will see how the whole story doesn't make much sense. We talked about it here and here and here

 

[Mudd]

Code the episode for jews facing discrimination, especially pre and postwar Europe, and Jewish immigrants to the US assimilating into local culture and giving up what makes us Jewish, and suddenly the episode becomes very frightening.

10/10

This is why metaphor is powerful. Someone watching the episode twenty years from now or in another part of the world may read it as referring to some other group or kind of discrimination altogether.

 

[Mudd]

That could be... it's why Measure of a Man was a bit better--no ambiguity about what was being discriminated against, AI versus human. Too many moving parts to be a classic, in my opinion. Still a solid outing though...

The issues in Measure were too pat and had little to do with human life. The only point of it was to put Data in danger. This one was better because in addition to Una's peril there were relevant issues of rights and justice to be dramatized.

 

[Borgminister]

The issues in Measure were too pat and had little to do with human life. This one was better.

MoaM was ahead of it's time.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Measure of a Man has a lot of ambiguity. Try to explain:

• What exactly Data was accused of
• Why was he acquitted

And you will see how the whole story doesn't make much sense. We talked about it here and here

Data wasn't accused of anything. The case was to prove his right to status as a sentient being and not a piece of equipment like a starship (which could also talk and move)

Something I really loved about this episode was seeing Starfleet captains flimsy upholding of the prime directive addressed. Also really liked how well acted everyone's sense of shock was at seeing the lawyer go for a revered Starfleet officer.

 

[Orac Zen]

Wow.

We've all seen / read the (often rather pretentious) stuff about Trek speaking to current events, preaching ideals, making people think, all that sort of stuff. This was an episode that actually delivered on all that, in absolute spades.

Brilliant stuff. Just brilliant.

 

[Mudd]

I don't prefer any of the TNG cast to their SNW counterparts, including Stewart.

 

[Mudd]

MoaM was ahead of it's time.

Why, because people are pretending now that AI is something that might need "protected rights?"

 

[StarMan]

I don't prefer any of the TNG cast to their SNW counterparts, including Stewart.

This episode might have sealed the deal on that score (at least for me).

I dunno. Something's just clicked. This cast has vitality and charm. It's infectious.

Also, props to the costume designers on Yetide Badaki's courtroom dress. Stunning.

 

[Skipper]

Data wasn't accused of anything. The case was to prove his right to status as a sentient being and not a piece of equipment like a starship (which could also talk and move)

No. The case was if Acts of Cumberland applied there or not. They didn't prove absolutely nothing. Picard just did a Great Speech and the episode ended. I assure you we dissected this episode ad nauseum.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

No. The case was if Acts of Cumberland applied there or not. They didn't prove absolutely nothing. Picard just did a Great Speech and the episode ended. I assure you we dissected this episode ad nauseum.

Oh wow you dissected it. I'm wrong so I'll just shut up.

Measure of a Man made no more or less sense than any other episode. It doesn't invalidate most people believing it's an amazing episode. None of us even have any clue what the Acts of Cumberland are because they are made up.

 

[Skipper]

Oh wow you dissected it. I'm wrong so I'll just shut up.

Measure of a Man made no more or less sense than any other episode. It doesn't invalidate most people believing it's an amazing episode. None of us even have any clue what the Acts of Cumberland are because they are made up.

Then please tell me what exactly they prove in the episode. That he was a sentient being? No one really doubt it. Only Maddox, and he was virtually the only one in the Galaxy, and really, it wasn't even the point in the hearing. That he has certain rights as Federation Citizen? It was already decided by a panel of expert for his admission at the Academy.

This is what happened:

• The Jag says that Data is a property of Federation because Acts of Cumberland apply here
• Then she say that Acts of Cumberland don't apply here, and she doesn't explain why

No new facts came up during the hearing, absolutely nothing was proven. No one disputed that Data was artificial and intelligent, and the Acts apply to Artificial Intelligences. So what changed Jag's mind?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Then please tell me what exactly they prove in the episode. That he was a sentient being? No one really doubt it. Only Maddox, and he was virtually the only one in the Galaxy, and really, it wasn't even the point in the hearing. That he has certain rights as Federation Citizen? It was already decided by a panel of expert for his admission at the Academy.

This is what happened:

• The Jag says that Data is a property of Federation because Acts of Cumberland apply here
• Then she say that Acts of Cumberland don't apply here, and she doesn't explain why

No new facts came up during the hearing, absolutely nothing was proven. No one disputed that Data was artificial and intelligent, and the Acts apply to Artificial Intelligences. So what changed Jag's mind?

Uh, no.

Data had been treated as a citizen of the Federation without establishing that he was, in fact, legally entitled to the rights and privileges of a citizen of the Federation. Bruce Maddox by challenging that position was going to remove not only Data's rights as a sentient being but also create legal precdent to create an army of slaves. The judge made a ruling based on her own interpretation that Data didn't fall under the fictional law that presumably covers Starfleet equipment.

As we've had happen in recent years, long established rights can be completely undone by legal challenge.