A Lawyer Looks at The Measure of a Man
- Thread starter Mysterion
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I watched the video for a while, not entirely..
I'm not sure it if it's smart to watch this video because there are things that our lawyer points out.
Although, one must remember that our lawyer and the case in TNG has hundreds of years between them, you can't simply compare the laws from our time to those of the 24th century. I guess? And suits, is the suit as necessary in court as it is today?
In the end, was the idea behind the video to promote a suit company?
I'm not sure it if it's smart to watch this video because there are things that our lawyer points out.
Although, one must remember that our lawyer and the case in TNG has hundreds of years between them, you can't simply compare the laws from our time to those of the 24th century. I guess? And suits, is the suit as necessary in court as it is today?
In the end, was the idea behind the video to promote a suit company?
"Look fly"? 1989 called, they want their colloquialism phraseology back - though I'm not sure why, it was pretty laughable back then too.
At least the host makes up for it with "teleporters".
Why would Medical division care about what's clearly a matter of Engineering division? Maddox should have been a gold shirt.
By 2:20 in, at least he admits Data is endowed. Saves us Tasha reflecting on it...
4:50 - how does work get destroyed if Data refuses? Just take what is known, go to 24th Century Radio Shack, buy the parts, buy a soldering iron and circuit fabrication machine, and tinker and try. As gakelly indicated, the story would be a lot more boring if it was created with these contingencies in mind.
Data is not a toaster. He's a stereo.
7:33 - interesting, the parallels of real life events changed for a sci-fi setting. Which is not a new concept.
10:42 - why not Data wearing his dress uniform? Or all of them, for that matter?
11:15 - so biological beings are not sentient because they don't know the capacity and speed of brain bits?
15:49 - nope, no murder committed. Picard didn't object citing murder, at which point Riker would remind that biological beings have no off switches.
18:06 - dramatic license, yes, but the audience doesn't know all the nuances.
20:13 - hehe
20:53 - zing
21:42 - yet they do not talk about the ship being sentient as it often asks crewmembers for clarification if they ask for something
At least the host makes up for it with "teleporters".
Why would Medical division care about what's clearly a matter of Engineering division? Maddox should have been a gold shirt.
By 2:20 in, at least he admits Data is endowed. Saves us Tasha reflecting on it...
4:50 - how does work get destroyed if Data refuses? Just take what is known, go to 24th Century Radio Shack, buy the parts, buy a soldering iron and circuit fabrication machine, and tinker and try. As gakelly indicated, the story would be a lot more boring if it was created with these contingencies in mind.
Data is not a toaster. He's a stereo.
7:33 - interesting, the parallels of real life events changed for a sci-fi setting. Which is not a new concept.
10:42 - why not Data wearing his dress uniform? Or all of them, for that matter?
11:15 - so biological beings are not sentient because they don't know the capacity and speed of brain bits?
15:49 - nope, no murder committed. Picard didn't object citing murder, at which point Riker would remind that biological beings have no off switches.
18:06 - dramatic license, yes, but the audience doesn't know all the nuances.
20:13 - hehe
20:53 - zing
21:42 - yet they do not talk about the ship being sentient as it often asks crewmembers for clarification if they ask for something
IMO, blue works for Maddox as Sciences wears blue as well as Medical - Maddox is a doctor, but he's not that kind of doctor. Although Maddox in gold as an engineer would work as well, I suppose.
I'm subscribed to this guy's channel and enjoyed this episode. (Though there's plenty of quibbles I have.)
The TNG episode itself is one of the best.
The TNG episode itself is one of the best.
Is there any digest version for someone who doesn't want to spend 25 minutes?
At which time I'd produce Dr. Selar to Spock pinch his shoulder & drop him like a bad habit lol
You don't have 25 minutes to watch a video?
Any period of 25 minutes I have I’d rather use to watch Star Trek than watch people comment on how real world legalisms would apply to Star Trek.
The main problem I had with this episode is that the question of Data's sentience, and the rights associated with it, should have already been settled when he joined Starfleet.
If Data was ruled sentient then, that should have ended all discussion on the matter.
If Data was ruled sentient then, that should have ended all discussion on the matter.
Agreed.
One would suppose that an important part of Starfleet education is character building, to generate rounded personalities, officers who can deal with difficult situations without losing their heads and make tough decisions themselves.
Suppose Data wasn't ruled truly sentient back then, but still allowed into Starfleet ...
"OK class, now we are going to discuss your Kobiyashi Maru results....
Frankly, the goal of this scenario was to see how you would deal with a no-win scenario, how you would deal with death .... oh, mister Data, you're still here? Sorry, but this part of the course isn't relevant for you as you won't ever need to make those kind of decisions, since you're simply Starfleet property, and anyway, you cannot die in the first place, can you? .... instead, we'll give you the opportunity to earn those credits with an extra astrometrics assignment ....."
It’s possible just the person who decided to let Data into Starfleet was working in a vacuum and had no power over other legal precedents.
There were no legal precedents.
Here was Data, looking and acting like a living being.
Maybe in a naive but curious way as any outsider without any cultural knowledge would.
Not being able to express emotions is not a hurdle to get into Starfleet, if you have a world full of such beings being co-founders of your organization .
Someone just stamped an application without questioning anything.
And then he went to work and excelled at everything.
He was like a super nerd at highschool, not too popular, bullied a bit, ridiculed, but aced his exams about astrophysics and starship operations.
Maybe there were a couple of obscure papers being written about him, but it was only later that someone with sufficient interest and enough understanding of robotics and artificial brains comes along that he drew attention to himself in that way.
And to Maddox it didn‘t even occur to ask himself about Data‘s selfawareness and rights as a personr even personhood.
So he didn‘t have a reason to raise any legal questions until Data said No.
Here was Data, looking and acting like a living being.
Maybe in a naive but curious way as any outsider without any cultural knowledge would.
Not being able to express emotions is not a hurdle to get into Starfleet, if you have a world full of such beings being co-founders of your organization .
Someone just stamped an application without questioning anything.
And then he went to work and excelled at everything.
He was like a super nerd at highschool, not too popular, bullied a bit, ridiculed, but aced his exams about astrophysics and starship operations.
Maybe there were a couple of obscure papers being written about him, but it was only later that someone with sufficient interest and enough understanding of robotics and artificial brains comes along that he drew attention to himself in that way.
And to Maddox it didn‘t even occur to ask himself about Data‘s selfawareness and rights as a personr even personhood.
So he didn‘t have a reason to raise any legal questions until Data said No.
I didn't watch the entire video, but..
There are hundreds of years between laws of today and the laws of the Federation in the 24th century.
I guess he's talking about laws in the US, they might not be the same as the laws of the Federation in the furure.
And the suit thing, if people wear suits in court today, they wear them in court in the future too?
Was the entire video a commencial?
There are hundreds of years between laws of today and the laws of the Federation in the 24th century.
I guess he's talking about laws in the US, they might not be the same as the laws of the Federation in the furure.
And the suit thing, if people wear suits in court today, they wear them in court in the future too?
Was the entire video a commencial?
Dude says that right at the top of his commentary video. It's the big hurdle to get past in order to enjoy the episode. Even if there were some lingering debate after he joined Starfleet, as to his actual sentience/sapience, there shouldn't be any as to his status as free to come and go. He did JOIN, so it's not like they found him & claimed him for Starfleet. He can't be property so long after he was endowed with liberties of other officers
With the dress uniforms, it makes sense that they should be worn in court, plus Kirk, Spock and the entire trial board & witnesses had to wear dress uniforms (or for civilians, suits or dressy clothes) in “Court Martial”, so I wouldn’t expect that to change in 100 years, although in Star Trek IV, Kirk & co are in their duty uniforms for their trial at at the Federation Council.
Of course, since the starbase in “Measure Of A Man” was very new, the dress uniform requirement maybe been waved for that time only.
I'm not sure that really holds up. Picard, Riker, and Data would all have had access to their dress uniforms on the Enterprise, and I doubt it would have been very hard for Louvois or Maddox to obtain one for themselves.
Though really, they guy in the video only seems to be complaining about Data wearing a "yellow onesie" to court as a means to plug his suit tailors anyway.
Just him pleasing to his sponsors.
Not only that but he is using 2019 thought processes on 24 th century issues.Any period of 25 minutes I have I’d rather use to watch Star Trek than watch people comment on how real world legalisms would apply to Star Trek.
Projecting the past onto the future.
It's just as bad as 2019 people projecting 2019 thought process on Christopher Columbus.
I have to take issue with that particular example. No amount of moral relativism makes his crimes okay. He was a mass murdering gold hungry slave trader who cut off people’s hands and made them wear it as a necklace for failing to meet their gold quota. That’s awful by any century’s thought process.
Christpher Columbus? I thought he was a hack that got hired to sail some ships for some royals. Never thought of him as being much of anything before accidentally finding a continent.
