A 9 from me.
What a very Star Trek episode it was having the debate about the Federation.
What a very Star Trek episode it was having the debate about the Federation.
Some of the Dominion Founders qualified as civilians? Well, that's quite a take, unless you mean to draw a distinction between Changelings and Founders.
Maybe you mean Odo himself? Does being DS9's constable, part of the Bajoran Militia, make him a civilian target?
I mean, the Founders were not civilians. Collectively, in the Great Link, they were the freaking absolute rulers of the Dominion, the top of the chain of command.
OK, but possibly, maybe possibly, a small number of Changelings were civilian Changelings, who got hit with the virus, who I can't even think of right now?
William Boimler was working for Section 31.
Laas.Some of the Dominion Founders qualified as civilians? Well, that's quite a take, unless you mean to draw a distinction between Changelings and Founders.
Maybe you mean Odo himself? Does being DS9's constable, part of the Bajoran Militia, make him a civilian target?
I mean, the Founders were not civilians. Collectively, in the Great Link, they were the freaking absolute rulers of the Dominion, the top of the chain of command.
OK, but possibly, maybe possibly, a small number of Changelings were civilian Changelings, who got hit with the virus, who I can't even think of right now?
Is the president of the Federation (and presumably the leaders of the various member worlds) a civilian or part of the military infrastructure of Starfleet?Some of the Dominion Founders qualified as civilians? Well, that's quite a take, unless you mean to draw a distinction between Changelings and Founders.
Maybe you mean Odo himself? Does being DS9's constable, part of the Bajoran Militia, make him a civilian target?
I mean, the Founders were not civilians. Collectively, in the Great Link, they were the freaking absolute rulers of the Dominion, the top of the chain of command.
OK, but possibly, maybe possibly, a small number of Changelings were civilian Changelings, who got hit with the virus, who I can't even think of right now?
I mean... that was literally the Burn. We just didn't actually see it happen.*takes notes*
Fans want a galaxy ending threat that ends the galaxy otherwise they can't take it seriously.
And as much as I'm a fan of Prodigy and Lower Decks, they both had rogue AIs take over Starfleet and nearly cause its destruction so even the shows I like aren't free of the trope.
At least the DMA in Discovery S4 wasn't necessarily a galaxy ending threat - it was just a life form doing its own thing.
I dunno, imagine if DS9 featured 7 different Dominion Wars instead of a single 6 year war arc? It just feels meaningless after a while, especially if the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
I'm afraid I don't find it meaningless anymore than I believe Captain Kirk is going to blow up the ship.
Good points.
I agree, Laas might qualify as a civilian Changeling. He made contact with Odo after Odo had become a carrier and before he was cured, and presumably Laas got infected when he and Odo linked. Infecting with a biological weapon intending to be fatal could well qualify as firing upon.
Thank you.
Using the real world as a model, I would propose that it depends upon whether the leader is elected democratically. Targeting democratically elected civilian leadership or civil servants even during wartime could well qualify as firing on civilians.
The Founders being absolute rulers of the Dominion aren't democratically elected. They don't qualify as civilian.
However, @Fateor's made a good point in citing Laas. Even though Laas was one of the Hundred that were distributed to observe and collect data and eventually to bring it back to the Great Link, Laas himself began as all but a blank slate, an innocent, not even actually a spy, accordingly I'd think... civilian.
I feel like the legacy shows had threats against all of the universe/galaxy/Federation/Starfleet reasonably often. For example: “City on the Edge of Forever” “We’ll Always Have Paris” “Conspiracy”, “Yesterday’s Enterprise” “The Best of Both Worlds” “The Game” “Past Tense” “Playing God”, “Scorpion”. So, having one at the end of the season doesn’t seem out of place in a Star Trek series.
I'm 100% not a "blame Kurtzman" kind of guy, but it's been so omnipresent I think this must come from him.
I'm not sure where they got this idea from, exactly. Certainly these kind of huge stakes weren't common in past Star Trek. Even in the Trek movies (which tended towards higher stakes) Earth was only directly threatened in a handful (TMP, TVH, FC, and ST09).
It's also not generally a feature of modern serialized shows, from what I can see. Even in the MCU miniseries, generally speaking the stakes of heroism were smaller and more personal. Game of Thrones didn't do this. The Expanse didn't do this. Why do they think this is such a good idea?
Curious which 3-4 you thought landed? PIC 3, DIS 4, and SNW 1/2?
Honestly, I'm kinda getting Elnor vibes off of Jay-Den, where they have this awesome idea for a character introduction, and then decide the actor's not up to skiff or something and pretty much ignore them for the remainder of the show. Hope I'm wrong.
Pretty sure the "Class of 3196" is a tongue-in-cheek reference to the current in-universe year and isn't meant to be taken as their literal graduation date. Nus Braka even has the same note. (Though whether 3196 is the right year is definitely something I've seen contested based on stardate.)The chancelor herself only just graduated with her cadets
Non-Klingon Jay-Den too
Also thought it was kind of obvious that these were pictures of the actors when they were younger, not the characters. That's why they're all humans and, for the two voice-only characters, why they have a physical form.
Here's a gallery of the text from the main on end titles for those who'd like to peruse without dealing with pausing. Some of them are pretty funny.
They're doing a Dark Knight Rises in the flying Academy building. Although I was SURE that part was in the separated saucer?
Too much mush and schmaltz. Instead of one big speech, everyone's lined up for a succession of them. It's a bit much. Not all bad, though.
The colour of the phaser beams mattered! Love it
Still, can't wait for season 2!
Too much mush and schmaltz. Instead of one big speech, everyone's lined up for a succession of them. It's a bit much. Not all bad, though.
The colour of the phaser beams mattered! Love it
Still, can't wait for season 2!
It's different though, because those episodes were one-offs in episodic shows that also featured lower stakes and character-based stories. In contrast, all seasons of Discovery bar Season 3, and all seasons of Picard, involved an epic-scale threat in the finale in which Earth, the Federation, and/or all of reality is put at risk. While SNW Seasons 1 and 2 eschewed this, Season 3 stuck in a last-minute galaxy-level threat at the last second. And the arc of this season fell into the same trap again.
Yeah. This is more an issue with DIS/PIC, but the lack of utilizing the serialization structure to the fullest and building up threats across multiple seasons is far and away the most exasperating aspect of modern serialized Trek.
If you have a long-running show across multiple seasons, why wouldn't you want to leave hanging story elements that can be picked up again later? Why wouldn't you want to build threats and complicate things further over time?
Badgey didn't take over Starfleet, he uploaded himself onto the subspace network then ascended to a higher plane of existence.
Or are you talking about the Texas class? Though that was only three ships.
Really, the only "universe ending threat" Lower Decks did was in it's final episode with everything else just being small local problems.
Now here's where I'm going to say an unpopular opinion: I didn't like it and it feels like it was written as a bunch of retcons that are designed to make our heroes no longer feel like they made mistakes. There's a famous Daredevil villain, Typhoid Mary, who has the origin that during Daredevil's first night out, he accidentally knocked a sex worker out a window and caused her to die. This is Frank Miller and it caused Matt to change his mind about a lot of things and get kicked out of the Chaste. However, later creators would reveal she survived (albeit with brain damage and superpowers). Matt feels a bunch of relief about it and no guilt for turning her into a supervillain.
Here, Ake felt so strongly about Anisha's sentence by the Federation and separation from her child that she quit Starfleet. She was so disgusted by it that Admiral Vance had to promise reforms and a free hand to get her to return. This is not the same Ake as this episode's Ake who tells Anisha that she deserved to go to prison and that it was justice. Which could be character development except for the fact it absolutely comes with a bunch of asides that Anisha was far more involved in the heist rather than someone who received stolen goods after the fact.
I hate it.
The Burn was an opportunity to discuss the Federation repairing its ideals and rebuilding trust after it was all destroyed. Instead, Ake confidently says the Federation has never bombed civilians ("For the Uniform", "The Wounded", Section 31'a shenanigans) while guilting Anisha for spending 20 years in prison. It's an ugly look and "We're the good guys, trust us" is not a lesson that works right now. Starfleet has always been held to a higher standard by Picard, Kirk, and others because that's the only way you can stay on the straight and narrow. It undermines the entirety of the premise of the show and just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
And I feel ridiculous because I felt that the first episode was too hard on the Federation but this is way too much in the other direction.
Here, Ake felt so strongly about Anisha's sentence by the Federation and separation from her child that she quit Starfleet. She was so disgusted by it that Admiral Vance had to promise reforms and a free hand to get her to return. This is not the same Ake as this episode's Ake who tells Anisha that she deserved to go to prison and that it was justice. Which could be character development except for the fact it absolutely comes with a bunch of asides that Anisha was far more involved in the heist rather than someone who received stolen goods after the fact.
I hate it.
The Burn was an opportunity to discuss the Federation repairing its ideals and rebuilding trust after it was all destroyed. Instead, Ake confidently says the Federation has never bombed civilians ("For the Uniform", "The Wounded", Section 31'a shenanigans) while guilting Anisha for spending 20 years in prison. It's an ugly look and "We're the good guys, trust us" is not a lesson that works right now. Starfleet has always been held to a higher standard by Picard, Kirk, and others because that's the only way you can stay on the straight and narrow. It undermines the entirety of the premise of the show and just leaves a nasty taste in my mouth.
And I feel ridiculous because I felt that the first episode was too hard on the Federation but this is way too much in the other direction.
Given how production works, most of his storyline for these past two episodes probably got left on the cutting room floor.
This is the same problem that SNW has been drifting into - this weird hagiography of the Federation and Starfleet as these sanctified organizations that can do no wrong. DS9, and even TNG in episodes like The Drumhead and I, Borg, showcased sometimes they made bad calls. A better world doesn't mean a flawless one, after all, and sometimes shitty people get to call the shots and make (or come close to making) bad decisions.
The proper way to do "the system works" is to show the system responding to critique and criticism by changing. Not to just flatly have the lead talk about how we always do our best, goshdarnit!
Also, like it or not, but people will and do see Starfleet as Space America. And when you imply Starfleet can do no wrong, well...
Can you imagine.
"Bur were there no iconic/legendary Captains in the last 800 years ..."
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
