Garbage in. Garbage out.
Spoilers Star Trek: Prodigy 1x03 - "Starstruck"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Verbal gag for the audience,
In my own personal opinion, I think Brobdingnag could be projecting and making assumptions.
He might assume that the way UFP was described by Holo Janeway cannot possibly exist as it might be 'too good to be real' or a 'utopia' or somehow doesn't mesh with what was shown to date (except it does).
As a potential example, I noticed that people who are deeply entrenched in Capitalism were also usually taught that anyhting else is 'bad' and tend to have a very negative (and misguided) outlook on anything not Capitalist (which is ironic because a mountain of scientific evidence we have actually points to Capitalism as the primary cause of most of our problems in the world and things being arguably worse as a result of this being ignored).
UFP was based off Resource Based Economy and The Venus Project from Jacque Fresco (or at least indications exist that Roddenberry did that)... but even Fresco repeatedly stated that RBE/TVP is not a utopia (and as such, neither is the UFP). It's just a much better system compared to what we have right now.
Solving existing problems wouldn't create a utopia... it would simply create a better world for everyone where we would no longer be plagued by ridiculous problems that stem from an outdated socio-economic system.
Instead, the problems of tomorrow would be something like: how do we further minimize footprint and allow the biosphere to recuperate in the smallest amount of time.
What would be the best way to clean up the trash in Earth's orbit and colonize moon and Mars?
That sort of thing.
To a person from over 200 years ago, our world today would seem like a 'utopia', and we know its not (heck, we HAVE the solutions to problems in the real world and had them for better part of 100 years, we just refuse to use them because people's values and priorities are so badly distorted in the current system that they seriously don't think there's anything wrong with the system itself).
At any rate, we know the UFP is not perfect. But it also doesn't actively lie to prospective member species (or individual people) about memership or what it is, and it has a pretty rigorous standard for if a species wants to become a member.
I guess some people see Janeway's description of UFP as propaganda because in their heads, they can't see it as anything else due to the highly deceptive and bad environments they grew up in which shaped their worldview... so they will assume the worst.
But we know that how Janeway portrayed UFP is actually accurate... and I definitely liked her delivery... it was very nicely done.
However, I also don't think she's clueless about who these kids are... and knows they aren't actual SF cadets. We have an indication of this when Del tried to explain himself only for Janeway to say 'its obvious you are SF cadets' with a smirk.
Plus, she's a hologram and has access to both internal and external sensor logs... and these kids have been saying A LOT of stuff about themselves since they first stepped onboard (and in Holo-Janeway's presence)... all of which was likely recorded by internal sensors, so she would know they fled a lifetime of oppression.
Given the hostile and highly distrustful environment the kids come from, I think saying to the kids outright they are lying to her about being cadets is probably something she doesn't want to do, and they would be in danger of misusing the Protostar (and its technology) as well (just think of how much damage these kids could do if they're not careful - and because they are in a Federation starship, it could cause diplomatic havoc for the UFP in the future).
So instead, she could be trying to create a safe environment for the kids so they can develop trust in each other and finally into Janeway... after which, Del (or someone else like Zero or Rok, if not even Gwyn or Murf) could confide in her.
So, Janeway is engaging in a bit of a subterfuge here... but its not malicious. Its called being subtle because a direct approach might not always work.
In the meantime, she would impart Starfleet's principles and ideals through their training so they will (hopefully) notice that what Janeway said about UFP is actually all accurate.
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They actually reminded me more of escape pods in the Halo franchise aboard human/Spartan ships.
Source? The UFP shows up In the latter half of TOS season 1 and doesn’t get much development beyond being a UN and sometimes USA analog. The economic angle is mostly hand waves about credits and no money.
One would hope that an enlightened society like the Federation wouldn't make their prisoners eat crap like that.
I mean, when I toured Alcatraz a few years ago, I was struck by one thing: prison staff and inmates ate the same food! Not only that, but that food was actually very good, IIRC. And that was at frickin' Alcatraz.
So if one of the most notorious real life prisons still managed to give their inmates decent meals, you'd think that the Federation would be even better at that...
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I think one of those should be "guards".
I think one of those should be "guards".
Whoopsies.
Fair point, I would agree with that for sure. That’s sort of why I wrote slop as well, since a bland, homogenized food source as animal feed feels more likely for the federation to have on file than prison food.
I think propaganda, in a narrative medium, isn't necessarily about lying or deception, but steering you with emotional rhetoric/imagery/music to a specific viewpoint so much that it goes beyond the ostensible story you're telling and is aimed at a real world agenda.
One of my favorite pieces of propaganda was in the film Casablanca. That part where the people in the bar start singing the French national anthem makes my eyes well up and fills me with French patriotic pride for though France had fallen to the Nazis, the French spirit was not crushed. I am not any kind of particular Francophile and if I think about it, I usually think of France as primarily an imperial power (especially in the 1940s). So I find it effective. If there's deception, it's more of a distraction from France's flaws, than anything overt.
One of my favorite pieces of propaganda was in the film Casablanca. That part where the people in the bar start singing the French national anthem makes my eyes well up and fills me with French patriotic pride for though France had fallen to the Nazis, the French spirit was not crushed. I am not any kind of particular Francophile and if I think about it, I usually think of France as primarily an imperial power (especially in the 1940s). So I find it effective. If there's deception, it's more of a distraction from France's flaws, than anything overt.
Yes, that part always gets me, no matter how many times I've seen it.
No.
As Mr. Laser Beam said, an enlightened society in UFP would be providing high quality food to prisoners. And also, UFP is about REFORMING the prisoner so they can be returned into society eventually.
One of the reasons why Nutri-goop probably is listed in UFP database is because the UFP is a collection of over 150 alien species and is able to extrapolate ridiculous amount of information about how different societies in the galaxy have evolved and what they could be feeding their prisoners.
UFP has knowledge of over 150 alien species to work with. We can extrapolate incalculable amount of stuff using adaptive algorithms and AI from the total sum of human knowledge in real life, so I think UFP would be more than capable of extrapolating with extremely high accuracy the existence of Nutri-goop and that it would be called like that.
On top of that, VOY was in the DQ, so its possible the crew learned of Nutri-goop specifically in an area of space near the Diviner's mining asteroid.
Plus, we don't know if Nutri-goop isn't actually nutritional. For all we know it may be extremely nutritionally complete and tasty. I mean, people mine on that prison colony... it has to be able to provide energy for hard labor after all. Obviously for some species with different taste buds, it might not taste that good, but to others, it just might.
Of course, not saying its actually something we will see on a regular basis, but Rok Tokh hadn't eaten anything else in her entire life... so its the only thing she knows of (for now).
I’ve been unclear, you both misunderstand me. I did not mean to intimate or imply that the Federation fed it to its prisoners, just that the word Nutri-Goop as related with the universal translator and understood by the replicator, may be the 2300’s word for a bland, homogenized food.
Not solely the 150+ member cultures making up the Federation's membership, but as much information as they've all been able to gather about all the non-UFP neighbour-cultures that they knew about c. 2380 or then-abouts. Including those Gamma and Delta cultures they learned of via DS9 and VOY misadventures.
It would be cool to get a Dominion reference. That power from the other side of the galaxy that tried to conquer the Federation but failed. We got at least one Dominion reference on VOY once the war had begun on DS9 so it'd be good to establish that powerful empires and interstellar organizations like the Dominion are known about in PRO if only by name.
Goodness, you folks have been busy! 
All in all, I am *really* loving this show! Someone commented about watching with their kids and I hope that's happening with many families.
Since I doubt we're done with them in real life, probably not.
I read a review on another site where they referred to her as "the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Rok-Rak" and, after I stopped laughing, I wished I'd thought of it.
LOL!
I love how they're handling character development and wish more writers would do this! Instead of some "here's my entire backstory" infodump, we're getting little hints from what the characters say and do, like Rok-Tahk not knowing any other food than what was at the prison (telling us she was either born there or has been there most of her life) and Dal's cynicism about the Federation. This kind of writing makes me want to know more! I'm very impressed.
I'm not trying to re-open this, but 2 quick things: 1) in fiction, immortality often leads to madness or cruelty out of boredom, and 2) sadly, one cannot discount the things we do to ourselves that may impact our lifespan and/or aging. For example, I smoked for about 13-15 years (i've been a non-smoker for 20+) and have gained and lost a lot of weight over my lifetime. One or both of those may impact how long I live and how well I live. But I *chose* them. I was stupid, yes, but you can't discount that.
Ooh! Interesting idea!
That's what I figured too. In fact, I laughed when Dal cut HJaneway off 'coz I knew what was coming.
I disagree. I was kinda saying it with her in my head.
Godwin's Law has been invoked. Let us all mark the End of that discussion.
Oh, I'm sure that's the reason! Which, again, means HE knows about it.
All in all, I am *really* loving this show! Someone commented about watching with their kids and I hope that's happening with many families.
in fiction there is sound in space and a couple who starts hating each other the minute they meet is destined to fall in love.
This.
When you think about it, immortality has been villified in fiction because the writers often ignore the fact that things keep changing... and as such, people also change over time.
You aren't the same person you were for example 10 years ago.. or heck, even 5 years ago. Society for that matter has changed in a very short time span.
Subtle changes in ones environment have affected people even if they have a seemingly 'same routine' (no things are the same day in and day out - there are always differences). They read more information, gained more knowledge, etc.
The world keeps changing in ever shorter intervals... there is also the whole GALAXY out there (and universe) to explore.
I don't think anyone would get bored.
People just need to start to think about life differently... and scifi writers need to stop villifying immortality because they don't know any better.
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