Spoilers Star Trek: Picard General Discussion Thread

[Timofnine]

David Mack is not an author "from the 90s." His first published Trek novel was released in 2001 and he's still writing. His most recent Trek novel was the TOS novel Harm's Way released last November, and he has a Picard novel Firewall due this coming February. He also has story credit on two DS9 episodes and is currently a creative consultant on Lower Decks and Prodigy.

Well, if he is current then maybe he can be involved in the new Star Trek series or movie after all then as he seems to have a good grasp of the late 24th century, which would be a good jumping off point for a 25th century continuation of Star Trek. I will not be able to recommend him properly until I have finished reading Destiny, and it is a *really* thick book. It would also depend on which two DS9 episodes he wrote, IMBD will not let me see without downloading their app. The fact that he is involved with Prodigy is also in his favour, that’s the best nu-Trek so far.

#savestartrekprodigy

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, if he is current then maybe he can be involved in the new Star Trek series or movie

A movie is not going to be handed to a writer with no previous scriptwriting experience.

It would also depend on which two DS9 episodes he wrote,

Starship Down and It's Only a Paper Moon. And he didn't write them, just developed the story ideas for them.

 

[Timofnine]

A movie is not going to be handed to a writer with no previous scriptwriting experience.

Starship Down and It's Only a Paper Moon. And he didn't write them, just developed the story ideas for them.

Well in such a situation wouldn’t a writer work with an established script writer?

Like I said, I have not finished the book yet. Not even half way through. I should try and catch up with other modern Star Trek novels, the Discovery novels never appealed to me. I did buy the Picard novel, Last Best Hope, but I found it hard to read during lockdown so only read the first Chapter before giving up. I could give that novel another go after Destiny seeing as I have it.

 

[fireproof78]

Well in such a situation wouldn’t a writer work with an established script writer?

Then they would just work with the script writer, instead of paying two people.

 

[Timofnine]

Then they would just work with the script writer, instead of paying two people.

But the script writer may not have as good ideas as a novelist? Surely novelists write more freely with creativity in comparison to script writers who put their stories in to a more rigid and simplified format using a template? Why can’t a novelists story or TV/movie idea be used, with a script writer adapting the story for television or film? I would say that it is harder to write a good novel than a good script, but I could be wrong.

 

[Reanok]

David Mack had talked to Paramount about his Destiny novels with Kirsten Beyer to be the Picard series but the tv executives chose a different route with the stories for new characters and plotting it out for season 1 with the Romulans and Borg . Patrick Stewart had other opinions about what he wanted when it came to the Borg. They brought back Hugh and Seven of Nine the ex bs on the Borg ship .And that's what they went with. David Mack recently talked about it in the book forum here . They talked about it for a few months but things didn't pan out .

 

[Timofnine]

David Mack had talked to Paramount about his Destiny novels with Kirsten Beyer to be the Picard series but the tv executives chose a different route with the stories for new characters and plotting it out for season 1 with the Romulans and Borg . Patrick Stewart had other opinions about what he wanted when it came to the Borg. And that's what they went with. David Mack recently talked about in the book forum here . They talked about for awhile but things didn't pan out .

Oh well that’s a shame. Would have been cool.

 

[The Wormhole]

But the script writer may not have as good ideas as a novelist? Surely novelists write more freely with creativity in comparison to script writers who put their stories in to a more rigid and simplified format using a template? Why can’t a novelists story or TV/movie idea be used, with a script writer adapting the story for television or film? I would say that it is harder to write a good novel than a good script, but I could be wrong.

Script writing and prose writing are two different beasts entirely. And while there are writers who have successfully done both, they are few and those few have admitted the transition from one format to the other was a difficult one.

 

[Tosk]

Starship Down and It's Only a Paper Moon. And he didn't write them, just developed the story ideas for them.

Half true. He and John Ordover did write Starship Down.

 

[fireproof78]

But the script writer may not have as good ideas as a novelist? Surely novelists write more freely with creativity in comparison to script writers who put their stories in to a more rigid and simplified format using a template? Why can’t a novelists story or TV/movie idea be used, with a script writer adapting the story for television or film? I would say that it is harder to write a good novel than a good script, but I could be wrong.

The short answer is no.

So shows will assemble a writers room to support idea creation. A novelist might be a part of the room but will not be adapting a work. Novel form and script form are two different skills.

 

[cooleddie74]

As someone who writes both short stories and scripts this is definitely true. Apples and oranges, with telling stories and using written language being the only common factors.

 

[Danja]

https://screenrant.com/star-trek-picard-troi-season-3-hero/

Troi, too, has resumed her job as a counselor, having daily sessions with Data (Brent Spiner) as he joyfully explores his new emotions.

If Troi is doing therapy again, I'd like to see her have a session with Seven of Nine.

It would have a real Tony Soprano/Dr. Melfi vibe about it.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Surely novelists write more freely with creativity in comparison to script writers who put their stories in to a more rigid and simplified format using a template?

WTF is this? What template do scriptwriters use? How is a script more rigid exactly?

 

[donners22]

A movie is not going to be handed to a writer with no previous scriptwriting experience.

Michael Chabon was one of the three screenwriters for John Carter, which was a bigger-budget film than any Trek film will ever be, with no prior screenwriting experience (at least of a completed film).

Of course, John Carter wound up being a box office failure, and Mack is not at Chabon's level as a writer (few are, of course). Indeed, I'm glad that Picard didn't make Destiny canon; I am very much not a fan.

 

[Timofnine]

WTF is this? What template do scriptwriters use? How is a script more rigid exactly?

Because I assume scripts need to be written like this:

[snip]
Captain Seven of Nine: Admiral, I refuse to comply! (Rebellious yet stern and authoritive)

Admiral Harry Kim: Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order! (Angry)

Captain Seven of Nine: But the Romulans would see this as an act of war! (Authoritatively, but voice begins to quiver)
[snip]

…and novels need to be written a bit like this, which is more ‘free form’:

The briefing had been adjourned, Seven and the Admiral remained in the [Starfleet Headquarters] Auditorium as it slowly emptied. The echoes of footsteps slowly fadeing, the buzz of activity and chatter receding from the room leading in to an extended moment of silence, of unease and apprehension. The two old friends stood side by side. “Admiral, I refuse to comply!” Seven looked on in anguish as she held her ground against the order. Despite her personal feelings for Harry, who she had grown so fond of over the years, she knew that she was making the right decision and that her crew would stand by her - even if it would cost her a friendship. Seven turned and her eyes immediately locked with Harry’s for the first time in over a decade. She saw that his innocence of old was gone, she now faced a man battle weary with eyes carrying the burden of command. Before her now was a warrior, a seasoned explorer, a man; his innocence of old lost. One of Starfleets finest. Harry looked away from Seven, his eyes shifting towards the canopy of flora decorating the great hall as he avoided her intense gaze, something that he has always done instinctively with Seven ever since he had very first met her on that fateful day on Voyager. Harry’s composure and authority began to faulter, his thoughts racing as he himself began to doubt the Starfleet directive he had just given, that he was to enforce and follow through as his duty. Harry began to feel like an ensign again.
“Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order!”
Seven and Harry locked eyes once more, but now she began to see the young ensign that she once knew, the friend that she once had, the smiles and the tears that they had shared together. Deep down this was the man that she had always known.
Seven herself began to hesistate, her tone shifting in fear at the realisation of the possible outcomes of the actions that she was being asked to commit by Starfleet, by her friend.
Seven’s voice began to shake, despite holding firm and strong. “But the Romulans would see this as an act of war…”
Harry Kim began to cry. “I want my mommy!!!!”
Seven of Nine gave Harry a hug.

I’m no expert by any means, but do see the difference? I’m not asking for grammar police, btw. I’m also not asking for comment on my narrative either, I just whipped that up as an example whilst having a brew and waiting for some Windows updates to install.

 

[Danja]

Because I assume scripts need to be written like this:

[snip]
Captain Seven of Nine: Admiral, I refuse to comply! (Rebellious yet stern and authoritive)

Admiral Harry Kim: Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order! (Angry)

Captain Seven of Nine: But the Romulans would see this as an act of war! (Authoritatively, but voice begins to quiver)
[snip]

It's best not to give too many stage directions (Jeri and Garrett need to have the space to do their jobs).

Acting is a creative process (Jeri has discussed this in the past).

There are a million things that go into creating a character (What do they wear? How do they stand? How do they walk? How do they speak? How do they part their hair?)



https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/brilliant-script-screenplay-format/

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Because I assume scripts need to be written like this:

[snip]
Captain Seven of Nine: Admiral, I refuse to comply! (Rebellious yet stern and authoritive)

Admiral Harry Kim: Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order! (Angry)

Captain Seven of Nine: But the Romulans would see this as an act of war! (Authoritatively, but voice begins to quiver)
[snip]

…and novels need to be written a bit like this, which is more ‘free form’:

The briefing had been adjourned, Seven and the Admiral remained in the [Starfleet Headquarters] Auditorium as it slowly emptied. The echoes of footsteps slowly fadeing, the buzz of activity and chatter receding from the room leading in to an extended moment of silence, of unease and apprehension. The two old friends stood side by side. “Admiral, I refuse to comply!” Seven looked on in anguish as she held her ground against the order. Despite her personal feelings for Harry, who she had grown so fond of over the years, she knew that she was making the right decision and that her crew would stand by her - even if it would cost her a friendship. Seven turned and her eyes immediately locked with Harry’s for the first time in over a decade. She saw that his innocence of old was gone, she now faced a man battle weary with eyes carrying the burden of command. Before her now was a warrior, a seasoned explorer, a man; his innocence of old lost. One of Starfleets finest. Harry looked away from Seven, his eyes shifting towards the canopy of flora decorating the great hall as he avoided her intense gaze, something that he has always done instinctively with Seven ever since he had very first met her on that fateful day on Voyager. Harry’s composure and authority began to faulter, his thoughts racing as he himself began to doubt the Starfleet directive he had just given, that he was to enforce and follow through as his duty. Harry began to feel like an ensign again.
“Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order!”
Seven and Harry locked eyes once more, but now she began to see the young ensign that she once knew, the friend that she once had, the smiles and the tears that they had shared together. Deep down this was the man that she had always known.
Seven herself began to hesistate, her tone shifting in fear at the realisation of the possible outcomes of the actions that she was being asked to commit by Starfleet, by her friend.
Seven’s voice began to shake, despite holding firm and strong. “But the Romulans would see this as an act of war…”
Harry Kim began to cry. “I want my mommy!!!!”
Seven of Nine gave Harry a hug.

I’m no expert by any means, but do see the difference? I’m not asking for grammar police, btw. I’m also not asking for comment on my narrative either, I just whipped that up as an example whilst having a brew and waiting for some Windows updates to install.

Reductive reasoning. There are less words so it’s easier to write?

What’s the template?

Where is the rigidity?

Try to think before you post, Tim. It’s like saying sculpting is easier than painting, or that playing violin is harder than playing the flute.

Writing a script and writing prose are different and require a different set of skills. As has been explained to you.

 

[The Knappos]

I think they’re talking about the format a screenplay takes. Which google can show you.

 

[Lord Garth]

A script uses 12-point Courier font.

There are different tab points for scene numbers, descriptions, names and dialogue. I don't remember what they are exactly. Software like Final Draft (costs a few hundred dollars) and Celtx (the shitty free version) allow you to not have to worry about those.

I hate this cookie-cutter system, but there's also the pacing of the script. It's 90-120 pages for a screenplay. One page is supposed to represent approximately one minute of screentime. Then there's the Syd Field paradigm. There are three acts.

Act I is the first 25% of the story, Act II is the next 50%, and Act III is the last 25%. In theory. It's almost never this exact but we'll pretend it is.

In Act I, you introduce the characters, what their world is like, and establish what's normal. You also set up what the main conflict is going to be. Then, by the end of of the first act, there's an Inciting Incident that disrupts what's normal.

In Act II, the protagonists have to navigate through this changed situation and by the middle of Act II, 50% of the way through the script, they hit a Point Of No Return, where they're committed to this path now and there's no going back. By the end of the second act, 75% of the way through the script, things look their bleakest and all hope is lost until there's a ray of sunshine, newfound hope...

Which brings us to Act III, the last 25% of the script, where everything's finally firing on all cylinders, and leads up to the Climax at the 90-95% mark where the hero saves the day, the wrong is righted, and the goal is achieved. The last 5-10% is the resolution where we see where everyone ends up.

Formulaic as all Hell, but there you have it. That's the crap we were taught to write in Screenwriting Class. If you want to know why most movies seem formulaic, that's why. Then it's up to a good Screenwriter to find a way to make a good story despite this paradigm.

There's more to it, and teleplays use a different type of format, but that's the quick-and-dirty version.

If you know what you're looking for, you can time a movie down to the script beats if it follows this formula.

A script is a lot more rigid than a novel, and you have to make sure you're able to convey a lot more with a LOT less description. The specifics of those details will be filled in by the Director, DP, Set Designer, Props & Costuming, whatever the actors bring to the table, etc.

 

[Mudd]

Network TV scripts were four acts, plus a teaser if that was part of a given series format. In the Riddenberry/Berman era, Trek scripts were five acts and a teaser - they were a couple of minutes shorter than network and included an extra act break for additional commercials.

There's nothing particularly "cookie-cutter" about the process. Any commercial art requires adhering to disciplines.

Because I assume scripts need to be written like this:

[snip]
Captain Seven of Nine: Admiral, I refuse to comply! (Rebellious yet stern and authoritive)

Admiral Harry Kim: Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order! (Angry)

Captain Seven of Nine: But the Romulans would see this as an act of war! (Authoritatively, but voice begins to quiver)
[snip]

…and novels need to be written a bit like this, which is more ‘free form’:

The briefing had been adjourned, Seven and the Admiral remained in the [Starfleet Headquarters] Auditorium as it slowly emptied. The echoes of footsteps slowly fadeing, the buzz of activity and chatter receding from the room leading in to an extended moment of silence, of unease and apprehension. The two old friends stood side by side. “Admiral, I refuse to comply!” Seven looked on in anguish as she held her ground against the order. Despite her personal feelings for Harry, who she had grown so fond of over the years, she knew that she was making the right decision and that her crew would stand by her - even if it would cost her a friendship. Seven turned and her eyes immediately locked with Harry’s for the first time in over a decade. She saw that his innocence of old was gone, she now faced a man battle weary with eyes carrying the burden of command. Before her now was a warrior, a seasoned explorer, a man; his innocence of old lost. One of Starfleets finest. Harry looked away from Seven, his eyes shifting towards the canopy of flora decorating the great hall as he avoided her intense gaze, something that he has always done instinctively with Seven ever since he had very first met her on that fateful day on Voyager. Harry’s composure and authority began to faulter, his thoughts racing as he himself began to doubt the Starfleet directive he had just given, that he was to enforce and follow through as his duty. Harry began to feel like an ensign again.
“Seven, Enterprise is our last best hope, you need to take her in to the Neutral Zone immediately. This is not a request as a friend, this is an order!”
Seven and Harry locked eyes once more, but now she began to see the young ensign that she once knew, the friend that she once had, the smiles and the tears that they had shared together. Deep down this was the man that she had always known.
Seven herself began to hesistate, her tone shifting in fear at the realisation of the possible outcomes of the actions that she was being asked to commit by Starfleet, by her friend.
Seven’s voice began to shake, despite holding firm and strong. “But the Romulans would see this as an act of war…”
Harry Kim began to cry. “I want my mommy!!!!”
Seven of Nine gave Harry a hug.

I’m no expert by any means, but do see the difference? I’m not asking for grammar police, btw. I’m also not asking for comment on my narrative either, I just whipped that up as an example whilst having a brew and waiting for some Windows updates to install.

This is not even a good guess, there's so much wrong with it. But there are thousands of actual TV and film scripts online as examples.*

*Not the transcript sites.