Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x10 - "The Last Generation"

[KennyB]

He's an elder and should be respected and honored as such. He's a human and has had his failings, but I refuse to let another self-absorbed egoist (Georgi Takei) to sour the reputation of Shatner simply out of petty spite and the fact that the only thing that is seemingly keeping Takei in the Star Trek orbit is his resentment towards Shatner.

Maybe all you guys are lost but this is the PICARD FORUM. Stop or take it somewhere else.

 

[KennyB]

Discovery is a failed attempt at a flagship show.

It spawned the Star Trek Hate Industrial Complex.

Alex Kurtzman might be the best villain in Star Trek history.

Again. PICARD FORUM. Take it to the Discovery forum.

 

[Mage]

One of the moments that touched me the most....

We know Worf is not a hugger. His scene with Deanna and Will earlier in the season made that more than clear, but we all knew this anyway.
His moment with Raffi, him being the one hugging her.... Yeah I cried a bit.

 

[jaime]

Discovery's original sin is always going to be how it morphed from an anthology show set in after Star Trek VI into a prequel show, with Bryan Fuller pushing a full-scale visual/thematic/storytelling refresh on the scale of the TNG launch. I've said this before, but imagine if your only Trek experience is TOS, the first 4 TOS movies and the animated series. And then suddenly you get this new show with an older captain who wears red not gold, a bridge that looks like a hotel lobby, an android regular character, a klingon on the bridge, a ship that looks little like the Enterprise-A, the "Last Outpost" Ferengi, and nary a Vulcan in sight? It is every bit a disruption Discovery was. Discovery actually had it harder because TNG Season 1 could build on sets and makeup from the first four movies, and Discovery was the first Trek TV series since 2005 and was a much cleaner break. But really note for note, from design decisions (make-up for aliens, bridge design, ship design, uniform colors) and writing / casting /story telling decisions, it's almost a 1:1 retracing of the differences TNG took with respect to TOS. The similarities are really remarkable. On top of that, the dysfunction of Discovery's Season 1 production, which got sorted over the course of Season 2, was every bit as bad as TNG Season 1s drama.

Discovery spent years getting away from a start that was always going to be very rough because it had the misfortune of being the first and being in the hands of people who were still figuring out what they wanted the show, and Star Trek in General to be. I cut it a very, very wide berth because of that. I don't know if any show could plausibly had an easier time doing what it did. SNW got off to a much better start than it otherwise would because much of its growing pains was worked out already in Discovery Season 2.

I really think Discovery going to the 32nd century liberated the show and revitalized it. I've really enjoyed Season 3 and 4 in the new setting. It is the show Discovery arguably always should have been. I think when all's said and done, the story of Discovery within context of the franchise will be "it was going to be a nasty job, but someone had to do it. And in the end, it recovered itself". That's a good legacy to go by.

On an side note, I'll say my original vision for "how to fix Discovery" in season 1, which is incompatible with what subsequently happened in Picard, is that it took place in the 2410s rather than the 2250s. You rip out of the Sarek/Spock stuff and add the backstory of "Martok failed to reform the Klingons and was overthrown by traditionalist T'Kuvma in 2409, who took them back to basics and utilized genetic alterations to the Klingon Augment virus to make them more potent warriors than ever" and pretty much everything from Season 1 works. Even the Spore drive, which is now just the latest in a post-Excelsior Transwarp sequence of new technologies to do better than Warp Drive. It may be stupid, but it makes much more sense in time because Warp Speed only doubled between 2293 and 2375, when it increased many, many times over between 2155 and 2293.

But think about. Almost every continuity problem with Discovery S1 is solved if they decided to set it 40 years after Nemesis... a "Next, Next Generation". Instead, the succumbed to prequelitus and gave Spock a random human sister.

Yup. TNG had enough connective tissue and a 78 year gap to help it make sense… DSC was crippled by choices made, including making it a prequel. This was something I waffled a lot about at the time. The most obvious ‘bad choice done large’ was the radical Klingon redesign, both the people and the ships, which was noticeably something TNG didn’t do.
My bigger problem at first was stuff like sticking bombs in bodies (by Starfleet!) and a tone that leant in a direction that was decidedly not Trek. (And not in a way that defines ‘True Trek’ but more in ways that I imagine would gain more consensus.) Its biggest flaw for me personally was that even while I was trying to give it a lot of latitude as fan, it also couldn’t hold my attention and often seemed to be actively trying in its writing and promotion to alienate *some* viewers. I don’t mean the politics — that’s a nonsense for the most part — but just in general.
It’s an edgy death metal listening teen, desperate to be different, ends up being the same as many other things.

 

[KennyB]

Yup. TNG had enough connective tissue and a 78 year gap to help it make sense… DSC was crippled by choices made, including making it a prequel. This was something I waffled a lot about at the time. The most obvious ‘bad choice done large’ was the radical Klingon redesign, both the people and the ships, which was noticeably something TNG didn’t do.
My bigger problem at first was stuff like sticking bombs in bodies (by Starfleet!) and a tone that leant in a direction that was decidedly not Trek. (And not in a way that defines ‘True Trek’ but more in ways that I imagine would gain more consensus.) Its biggest flaw for me personally was that even while I was trying to give it a lot of latitude as fan, it also couldn’t hold my attention and often seemed to be actively trying in its writing and promotion to alienate *some* viewers. I don’t mean the politics — that’s a nonsense for the most part — but just in general.
It’s an edgy death metal listening teen, desperate to be different, ends up being the same as many other things.

GUYS I SWEAR THERES A DISCOVERY FORUM. USE IT.

 

[jaime]

One of the moments that touched me the most....

We know Worf is not a hugger. His scene with Deanna and Will earlier in the season made that more than clear, but we all knew this anyway.
His moment with Raffi, him being the one hugging her.... Yeah I cried a bit.

Let’s be glad he didn’t go for ‘and I will make it a threesome’ line again. Seven’s slap would have been heard across the stars…

 

[Angel4576]

Yup. The 32nd century is boring. Too bad we have to go through a academy series set I'm that time frame. It will be like watching WB star trek. I'm sure there will be lots of tears. Lol

Can't wait for the season finale when they all take their exams, the tension. Got "cliffhanger" written all over it...!

 

[trek.]

Can't wait for the season finale when they all take their exams, the tension. Got "cliffhanger" written all over it...!

Yeah green risan marissa cooper is going to be wallowing about her not passing that orbital mechanics midterm.

 

[jaime]

GUYS I SWEAR THERES A DISCOVERY FORUM. USE IT.

Organic conversational growth guv — when considering where TNG was, and where we are now with it in Pic S3, and how the show came back in the modern era, and where it is now, and the considerations of what we might get with ‘Legacy’, it kind of comes up.
What’s most interesting is that this S3 of Picard should have prequelitis too, because of the time jump in the other show, but the general consensus seems to show that people are now decidedly thinking of this S3 time period as the ‘now’ of Star Trek. Even the old movie era had issues once TNG was established on screen.
There’s something about these nineties era Trek characters and their world that lands in a spot that works for people.

 

[Angel4576]

Yeah green risan marissa cooper is going to be wallowing about her not passing that orbital mechanics midterm.

Just who will earn that coveted training spot aboard the USS 90210-OC

 

[Kilana2]

Tim Russ played Tuvok in both of his appearances in this season.

Edit: oh do you mean the german dub?

I did. It was a bit off. I remembered it different from the show.

 

[Kilana2]

Kilana's location says Germany, maybe they meant the German dub actor.

I did. They changed several voice actors in the German dubbing. For Worf it was, because his voice actor Raimund Krone is dead since November 2021. They kept the voice actors for Data, Seven and Geordi, though.

 

[Racefuel]

That makes much more sense. I’m glad the German crew was able to keep who they could

 

[thribs]

I can’t believe Data didn’t sing the life form song when scanning that cube.

 

[Scionz]

Organic conversational growth guv — when considering where TNG was, and where we are now with it in Pic S3, and how the show came back in the modern era, and where it is now, and the considerations of what we might get with ‘Legacy’, it kind of comes up.
What’s most interesting is that this S3 of Picard should have prequelitis too, because of the time jump in the other show, but the general consensus seems to show that people are now decidedly thinking of this S3 time period as the ‘now’ of Star Trek. Even the old movie era had issues once TNG was established on screen.
There’s something about these nineties era Trek characters and their world that lands in a spot that works for people.

I agree with this so much. I think, at least within Trek fandom, is that TOS is distant for a lot of us who were born in the 70s and 80s. We didn't see it air in the 60s. We weren't part of the letter writing campaign in the 70s. My first Star Trek movie was Star Trek V. I watched the TOS movies out of order the first time. I didn't even see TMP until after I saw VI, nor III until after I saw IV. TOS was "the past" even then, just because I watched TNG as it aired, including All Good Things, which I said up thread, I had the privilege of seeing in the same room, in the same home, which I now own, that I saw "The Last Generation". I saw DS9 and Voyager and Enterprise as they were knew. I participated in discussions here around the turn of the millennium (old account). I was drawn into speculation websites and forums about what "Star Trek IX and Star Trek X" would be. The 24th century Trek always felt organic and breathing. It was further in the future than TOS but somehow more real and accessible.

I still feel that with Streaming Trek and Picard. These characters feel very organic and natural. Even 25th century starfleet, which now looks like a direct continuation of Nemesis era Starfleet, feels organic to what I grew up with. By contrast, though I like it a lot, Strange New World feels filled with comic book characters having comic book sized adventures in primary colors. And that's fine. I love it. Star Trek can be that too! But it doesn't feel real. It feel plastic.It feels definitely like a TV show.

We'll see what follows up Picard, but a continuation of the thematic tone of the 24th/25th century is sorely needed when you have SNW telling larger than life stories with larger than life heroes, and Discovery telling very dramatic stories (and good ones now), but everything still comes off as a performance. Picard Season 3 felt alive in a way Trek hasn't in decades. That is perhaps the greatest triumph of the season IMO.

 

[Scionz]

I can’t believe Data didn’t sing the life form song when scanning that cube.

One of greatest Data's moments? Oh no, let's not touch that.

 

[FederationHistorian]

This crazy idea I came up with a few years back, pre-Picard, which would be incompatible (now) with Prodigy and Picard, was basically a 13 episode anthology series that was inspired by Seven Soldiers of Victory... building a team that never actually all meets to face a threat that doesn't exist in a single time and place. Below's an outline... the full doc is quite extensive. I'm proud of it, but it doesn't work with what has aired since I wrote it.
---

Episodes 1-3, "Legacy" were about Lieutenant Molly O'Brien in 2399 to team with Julian Bashir (Section 31 leader) to find out why the remnant of the Obisdian order blew up a third of DS9 and killed Chief O'Brien and Keiko. Turns out, O'Brein was developing a long range transported technology based on the Iconians, and the Obsidian Order remnant wanted to use it to transport quantum torpedo's to the worlds of the Federation Alliance to win the war. It would deal with Molly's feelings about growing up exposed to constant danger and being moved around the galaxy. She would resent her parents but her experience would make her understand them. Bashir would be her guide in that. As head of Section 31, Bashir had spent most of the 2380s and 2390s trying to stop the Obsidian Order remnant.

Episodes 4-6, "Lost" is about Chakotay and Torres, stuck 200,000 BC. They tried to implement Quantum Slipstream technology as a proof of concept on the Delta Flyer, and ended up stranding themselves in the distant past. The arrive as a grand alliance of races were overthrowing their oppressors, the Iconians. The Iconians would try and win the war using their portal technology, but doing so unintentionally caused a False Vacuum Catastrophe. Entire systems got pushed into subspace. The Iconians manage to stop the Catastrophe over 20 years and destroy themselves. Torres and Chakotay realize they needed to plant the solution the Iconians came up with across the galaxy so anyone 200,000 years hence trying to use the Iconian portal technology would have a solution to stopping the false vacuum its use would unleash. Chakotay would get to be an archeologist, but in reverse.

Episodes 7-9, "Time" was about Jonathan Archer, who vanished (not died) the day after the NCC-1701 launched in 2245. he is rejuvenated by Daniels who (as we'd find out) sets Archer out to recover the pieces that Torres and Chakotay left, scattered across time. Archer would travel to 4 billion BC< 2273, 2295, 2327, 2364, 2399 and 3064. His mission gets him to see the full flowering of the Federation he helped build.

Episodes 10-12, "Destroyer" taking place in 2437, involved General Worf, the greatest hero in the Klingon Empire, who like Kor, outlived everyone and would could not die in battle. The Klingon Empire is at it's greatest extent ever, as partners of the Federation. The Federation is the shield, the Klingons the sword. But Worf has been denied his glorious death. Turns out, Qo'onos is destroyed when a great output of energy begins there and destroys the system, expanding outward unstoppably at FTL speeds. The Vacuum Catastrophe has begun. The broken empires is preyed upon by its enemies and Worf goes on a quest that leads him to to the long abandoned Terok Nor as the false vacuum consumes everything

Episode 13, "Destiny" tied it all together. Taking place in 200,000 BC, 2399, 3064, 2437, and 3060.
Chakotay and Torres in 200,000 BC put the anti-vacuum technology in a vault and seed its location across the galaxy. They die as radiation from the galactic-scale solution (that wiped out all "ancient" life of 200,000BC causes them to succumb.).
In 2399, Molly and Bashir find and stop the Obsidian Order remnant developing the Iconian portal tech Miles began working on (and was nearly done with). In the process, Molly discovers from her father's nots and Obsidian order research that while the portal would send the quantum torpedoes, the untindened False Vacuum side effect would occur. Archer would project himself from the future (hint hint) and lead Molly and Bashir to Chakotay and Torres' vault location (which he discovered in his 3 episode arc). They get the device. The entire Obsidian order is destroyed except for one, at the cost of Bashir's life. Bashir avenges miles and saves Molly though. Molly, realizing that knowledge of the portal technology escaped, resolves to wait on Terok Nor for the inevitable false vacuum, protecting the Iconian device in secret.
In 2437, General Worf, the las survivor of his crew arrives to find Molly, age 69, waiting for him since 2399. Archer kept her company through temporal project for 38 years. She tells Worf about the Obsidian Order plot and how, all these years later, they were the ones who destroyed Qo'nos and that she has the device to stop the false vacuum consuming everything before it gets too big. But the device must be activated from right next to the edge of it. Worf accepts his final mission to take the device from the girl he brought into this world in 'Disaster' who is now an old woman. Worf has his glorious death and the galaxy is saved.
In 3060, Archer sees that in the mid 25th century, with Qo'onos gone, the Klingon Empire remnant finally joins the Federation. He realizes that contrary to what Daniels instructed, he has become an active participant in his own timeline. Because he is Future Guy. His begins to do the Future-guy stuff we saw (and then some) and has a front row seat to eternity now, making sure the Federation achieves its destiny.

These are the type of crossover events that need to start happening with streaming-era Trek.

Voyager wasn't the kind of show to do big follow ups because of what UPN wanted at the time, but I felt that given that about half the crew were supposed to be Maquis, it would have been one of the most disruptive things to happen on Voyager that year. I can only imagine Chakotay going first to Janeway and telling her "I just found out... and I haven't told anyone yet... that the friends and loved ones of half our crew were slaughtered back in the Alpha Quadrant. They deserve to know". You could see how that would throw many people into deep depression... what were they going home for again? Others may want to re-ignite the old Maquis spirit. Regardless, it could have torn apart the hard-earned unity of the combined crew.

Again, Voyager couldn't do stories like that, but it would have been a great story to see.

UPN may not have allowed it, but it would have made a lot of sense.

With the way they revealed it in the episode, it makes sense B’Elanna and other Maquis would want to get revenge. But it would have also made a lot of sense if that was dragged out for several episodes before coming to that decision.

The specific Enterprise J may not have happened but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, either. I hope one day they do visit that, just not right now.

It may still come to fruition and those events as seen in the episode are treated as foreshadowing.

PIC just did so in regards to the future depicted by AGT.

Its possible a Legacy show will make the most out of the futures depicted in “The Visitor” and “Endgame”.

And someday, a 10-part miniseries or tv movie depicts the early Federation era lives involving Archer & his crew, circa “Twilight”.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

There’s something about these nineties era Trek characters and their world that lands in a spot that works for people.

I think it comes down to the era having that long period of consistent growth. From TNG right up to VOY, there was a (mostly) consistent aesthetic and writing style. 21 seasons of it... it's a deeper dive than any other Trek show.

When I think of Star Trek as a pop culture icon, I think of TOS. When I think of Star Trek in terms of a world in which I'd like to imagine myself or in which I could immerse myself, I think of the 24th century stuff.

 

[Scionz]

I think it comes down to the era having that long period of consistent growth. From TNG right up to VOY, there was a (mostly) consistent aesthetic and writing style. 21 seasons of it... it's a deeper dive than any other Trek show.

When I think of Star Trek as a pop culture icon, I think of TOS. When I think of Star Trek in terms of a world in which I'd like to imagine myself or in which I could immerse myself, I think of the 24th century stuff.

This is why I think people ripping on Kurtzman is very, very short sighted.

Rick Berman was a piece of work. He was petty. He was bullying. He was very misogynistic and at least half of the leading women in 90s Trek had to take his bullshit in order to keep working. But he was also extremely protective of the franchise, saw it lavishly funded at a time syndicated TV was drying up, and with his team - the names we all know - that he managed to keep together through 2005, created a universe with rules and internal history so consistent it can only be described as a "period piece of the future" in todays context. It was doing MCU level cross-media connectivity 15 years before the MCU.

Rick Berman as head of Trek, as head of anything, will necessarily have a complicated legacy, same as Gene did. The accusations from Terry Farrell and other issues that came to light in the last 10 years certainly cast him in a harsher light. However, we also cannot ignore that his management of the franchise and yes, even the nitpicking he did in design, created a consistency across hundreds of fictional years of content and 600 or so hours of real life hours of episodes, that forms the most consistent body of Trek. Like Chris Claremont on X-Men or Peter David on Hulk or Stan Lee on tons of Marvel Books in the 1960s, Star Trek benefited by having one guy, at the head of a consistent team, in the driver seat for so long. It didn't have to be Rick Berman. It may even have been worse that it was specifically him than somebody else. But having a singular guy, running the "Star Trek" shop consisting of production studios for several shows and movies, supporting two different CG houses, made Trek as we know it possible. It just has to be one guy, and his one team, and not musical chairs.

Kurtzman Trek has done things I disagree with, and have taken me out of my "Trek Comfort Zone", such as it is. But I firmly believe that if Trek is thrive, it needs someone like him, who has bull with Paramount as Rick Berman did, at the head of Trek, defending the franchise but also building an internal creative consistency, for as long as possible. Kurtzman has a 5 year deal. I really hope it becomes a 10 year and then 15 year one. Because the absolute worst thing for Trek would be to have a "Head of Trek" with less pull at the helm that gets dominated by Paramount executives (which will inevitably mean the end of Trek again, as soon as ratings slip, which they will), or a Head of Trek who decides that he wants to do his own vision and jettison Kurtzmans or Bermans or everyone who came before. Trek needs consistency.

This is why I disagree with making Matalas head of Trek. Give Matalas Legacy. Make him King of the 24th/25th Century Kingdom. That is absolutely where he belongs. He gets it and is the successor to Berman in *that* context. But if he became Head of Trek, sure all of Trek may be better for it for a time, but because he isn't a huge name like Alex Kurtzman or Akiva Goldsman, who has leverage with Paramount for more resources, we'd see 5 Trek shows become 2 become 1 become 0 within 5 years.

 

[Captain B.84]

I would love to see this crew of Enterprise G have their own show, full of charisma and character! Great way to pass on the torch!

So many avenues to explore if that story is to be told...