Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x10 - "The Last Generation"

[C.E. Evans]

I haven't dismissed anything. When I said "no it doesn't" I was agreeing with you when you said it doesn't mean that the J won't exist which I thought was obvious from the fact I quoted you.

It really wasn't "obvious" at all. Anyway, the irony is that for the longest time, I held an opposition about the Enterprise-J and argued that the design in ENT's "Azati Prime" may never come to pass. But when I realized that my opposition was fueled mainly by my initial dislike of the design and that there really wasn't anything that said it couldn't exist in the regular timeline, I accepted the possibility and now I'm cool with it going either way.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Exactly. Also the D made some pretty quick moves in the series. Even on encounter at farpoint it made quick turns. Not as quick as what data could do though.

This version of Data not only has the computational speed (maybe even more than the original) but also instincts.

Picard took over piloting the E-D out of the asteroid field in Ship In A Bottle Booby Trap because of the "human factor" the computer didn't have.

This Data really is The Best Of Both Worlds

 

[Timofnine]

Seven clearly stated at the end of VOY (in Endgame Part II):
"The Transwarp network has been obliterated Captain".

That's a rather encompassingly finite statement.

I had always assumed that it was the one hub that was destroyed though I agree it is likely that all 6 were. Seeing the network in use after Seven says that it has been ‘obliterated’ adds to this confusion, especially as this is shown after the destruction of the uni complex and hub. Destroying the network itself though would not amount to the destruction of the Borg. It would just leave the Collective scattered around the galaxy with each cube/ship having to rely on their own installed transwarp coils and other means, such as standard warp, for transport. I would imagine that the resources needed to rebuild transwarp hubs would be unimaginable in scale - they may take a very long time to rebuild, but I am sure that the Borg would try to do so.

If you look at what the word ‘obliterate’ actually means though, it does not always mean to totally destroy something. Obliterate also means “to remove all signs of something, either by destroying it or by covering it so that it cannot be seen.”. So it is possible that the transwarp conduit network is still in place on a transwarp level outside of normal space, but unusable as the hubs(s) have now been disconnected/destroyed, meaning that it has been obliterated from our galaxy ‘covering it so that it cannot be seen’. There may be other ways of tapping into what is left of the transwarp network. Just imagine this entire network existing in two plains of existence, we have no idea how Borg transwarp hubs actually work - they are only labelled as transwarp as the speeds that they allow ships to travel ‘transcend’ warp drives. I doubt that the tech is the same as that installed on the USS Excelsior in the 2300’s. The Borg Transwarp hub could be like some form of ‘mycelial network’ in concept but in a different layer of subspace.

Also, we see the Borg transwarp network in Picard season 2 - Soji pilots the La Sirena to an abandoned Borg transwarp conduit at one point. The abandoned transwarp conduits were also used in Star Trek Discovery in the 32nd century from what I remember too, though it is possible that these may have been rebuilt.

Of course, the Borg aren't completely reliant on the hubs to use Transwarp. Remember that they can generate/use their own independent conduits with TW coils... but it seems that there's a drawback to this as it might be power intensive and can burn out the TW coils unless you have enough of them to work in unison (the one TW coil VOY used was able to allow the ship to travel through 20 000 Ly's before it burned out).

Its possible this is why the Borg have built the TW hubs... to make TW travel more efficient. Why having to initiate TW twice, if you can only do so 50% of the time or less for example?

We don't know what condition the Artifact was in when it encountered the Admonitiob. It was probably severely damaged as a result of the pathogen already and the Romulans were assimilated as an attempt to get some sense of function back... but this ended up backfiring on them and the AI signal/message effectively shut down the artifact.

This is speculation, the insinuation from Picard season 1 is that the Admonition cannot even be handled by the Borg upon knowing it. The Admonition is a pretty big deal…

No, the Borg Sphere (not a Diamond) in Endgame never adapted to the virus (it adapted to the Armor technology VOY had) and was still able to hear the Queen's thoughts at the end of Endgame... the pathogen was likely affecting the whole collective but it took time for it to proliferate across large distances.

But if you watch the clip that I have embedded below, and read the transcript here, it is stated that the Borg *did* assimilate the neurolytic pathogen. Watch 2:40 in to this clip:

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[Farscape One]

This version of Data not only has the computational speed (maybe even more than the original) but also instincts.

Picard took over piloting the E-D out of the asteroid field in Ship In A Bottle because of the "human factor" the computer didn't have.

This Data really is The Best Of Both Worlds

That was "Booby Trap", not "Ship In A Bottle".

 

[Paul Weaver]

The Ent-D was not in an atmosphere so there was no air resistance.

That was a bit confusing, it felt to me that sometimes the cube was inside Jupiter's atmosphere, but sometimes wasn't.

We know the D struggles with hitting at atmosphere at orbital veloicty, for some reason. Despite the immense power and delta-v available to it in non-subspace mechanics, it still had trouble in the atmosphere in Arsenal of Freedom if nowhere else.

(I'll give it Generations as presumably many systems were offline)

This Data really is The Best Of Both Worlds

Really a missed opportunity for that line. Queen got "Futures End" in.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

That was "Booby Trap", not "Ship In A Bottle".

 

[Belz...]

I haven't dismissed anything. When I said "no it doesn't" I was agreeing with you when you said it doesn't mean that the J won't exist which I thought was obvious from the fact I quoted you.

I admit that I had to read that 2-3 times before I understood that you were actually agreeing with him. It's the fact you quoted the whole paragraph that caused the confusion.

Funny how language is, sometimes.

 

[The_Baroness]

I admit that I had to read that 2-3 times before I understood that you were actually agreeing with him. It's the fact you quoted the whole paragraph that caused the confusion.

Funny how language is, sometimes.

Well, he said "It doesn't mean it doesn't exist"

so I said "No it doesn't"

if I were disagreeing, Id' have said "Yes it does"

 

[Deks]

I had always assumed that it was the one hub that was destroyed though I agree it is likely that all 6 were. Seeing the network in use after Seven says that it has been ‘obliterated’ adds to this confusion, especially as this is shown after the destruction of the uni complex and hub. Destroying the network itself though would not amount to the destruction of the Borg. It would just leave the Collective scattered around the galaxy with each cube/ship having to rely on their own installed transwarp coils and other means, such as standard warp, for transport. I would imagine that the resources needed to rebuild transwarp hubs would be unimaginable in scale - they may take a very long time to rebuild, but I am sure that the Borg would try to do so.

If you look at what the word ‘obliterate’ actually means though, it does not always mean to totally destroy something. Obliterate also means “to remove all signs of something, either by destroying it or by covering it so that it cannot be seen.”. So it is possible that the transwarp conduit network is still in place on a transwarp level outside of normal space, but unusable as the hubs(s) have now been disconnected/destroyed, meaning that it has been obliterated from our galaxy ‘covering it so that it cannot be seen’. There may be other ways of tapping into what is left of the transwarp network. Just imagine this entire network existing in two plains of existence, we have no idea how Borg transwarp hubs actually work - they are only labelled as transwarp as the speeds that they allow ships to travel ‘transcend’ warp drives. I doubt that the tech is the same as that installed on the USS Excelsior in the 2300’s. The Borg Transwarp hub could be like some form of ‘mycelial network’ in concept but in a different layer of subspace.

The hub VOY destroyed connected to all other quadrants and hubs in the galaxy.
And VOY initiated a chain reaction from INSIDE the TW network... we only saw the one in the DQ obliterated as it would have costed more money to showcase ALL of them being destroyed.
So, 7 pretty much definitively said 'the TW network has been obliterated Captain'.
There are 6 TW hubs in the galaxy..
The entire plan hinged on Admiral Janeway infecting the queen with the pathogen so that this would disrupt her control over the manifolds inside the hub.

Also, we see the Borg transwarp network in Picard season 2 - Soji pilots the La Sirena to an abandoned Borg transwarp conduit at one point. The abandoned transwarp conduits were also used in Star Trek Discovery in the 32nd century from what I remember too, though it is possible that these may have been rebuilt.
This is speculation, the insinuation from Picard season 1 is that the Admonition cannot even be handled by the Borg upon knowing it. The Admonition is a pretty big deal…
But if you watch the clip that I have embedded below, and read the transcript here, it is stated that the Borg *did* assimilate the neurolytic pathogen. Watch 2:40 in to this clip:

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Assimilating the pathogen was the goal... but that doesn't mean the Borg ADAPTED to it.
It still ravaged through the collective, killed the Queen and destroyed the Unicomplex (to say the least).
The collective's voices were also heavily breaking apart from the pathogen ravaging through the Hive Mind... so yeah, the little pathogen did incur massive damage and crippled the Borg severely.

As for the Admonition... oh please... its an AI.
Yes, its been said to be a 'big deal' but how much more of big deal it is compared to the Borg or 8472?

Its also NOT speculation the Artifact was heavily damaged from the neurolithic pathogen... its heavily implied in VOY Endgame (based on what the pathogen did to the Borg), Picard and in Prodigy.

The Romulans were projecting their own fear of AI onto Admonision and making it out to be 'larger than life' probably.
You think a full functional collective that's partly AI to begin with wouldn't be able to cope with the Admonition signal?
Meh... sorry, but I don't buy it.
A damaged Artifact/cube encountering that kind of signal? Yes. Fully functional cube to all of the hive mind intact? Nope.

 

[TRON JA307020]

This version of Data not only has the computational speed (maybe even more than the original) but also instincts.

Picard took over piloting the E-D out of the asteroid field in Ship In A Bottle because of the "human factor" the computer didn't have.

This Data really is The Best Of Both Worlds

Exactly. This new data has different capabilities and his body is more advanced.

 

[Belz...]

Well, he said "It doesn't mean it doesn't exist"

so I said "No it doesn't"

if I were disagreeing, Id' have said "Yes it does"

I know what you meant. I'm just saying that writing that after the whole paragraph introduced a possible confusion. No one's at fault, here.

 

[Timofnine]

Assimilating the pathogen was the goal... but that doesn't mean the Borg ADAPTED to it.
It still ravaged through the collective, killed the Queen and destroyed the Unicomplex (to say the least).
The collective's voices were also heavily breaking apart from the pathogen ravaging through the Hive Mind... so yeah, the little pathogen did incur massive damage and crippled the Borg severely.

I did not deny that the pathogen caused massive damage to the Borg, I am just piecing together the extent of this damage to the Collective using a combination of what we know of the Borg and their transwarp network as shown onscreen in canon. We can all fan-fic to fill in the gaps if we want to though, @Deks .

As for the Admonition... oh please... its an AI.
Yes, its been said to be a 'big deal' but how much more of big deal it is compared to the Borg or 8472?

For all we know, this AI may even consume the Borg and lead to the destruction of the Collective, like a parasitic insect taking over the hive.

Its also NOT speculation the Artifact was heavily damaged from the neurolithic pathogen... its heavily implied in VOY Endgame (based on what the pathogen did to the Borg), Picard and in Prodigy.

Without knowing extent of the damage caused by the virus, and also how much the Borg had recovered in the preceding 20 years, we just do not know for sure. Perhaps a 25th century spin-off series or streaming movie can clarify?

The Romulans were projecting their own fear of AI onto Admonision and making it out to be 'larger than life' probably.
You think a full functional collective that's partly AI to begin with wouldn't be able to cope with the Admonition signal?
Meh... sorry, but I don't buy it.
A damaged Artifact/cube encountering that kind of signal? Yes. Fully functional cube to all of the hive mind intact? Nope.

We just do not know how powerful this AI is though, @Deks, it could have evolved and ‘machine learned’ advanced features such as the capability of interfacing with nature itself aswell as technology, having made a jump from physical technological computational systems in to quantum reality. It is entirely feasible that an advanced artificial intelligence such as that experienced during the Admonition could manipulate the underlying code of universal reality, much like hacking into a computer system. Through the application of incomprehensibly vast computational power and knowledge, the AI could potentially identify weaknesses in universal code and exploit this to gain control over the simulated universe which we all inhabit. With such control, the AI could modify the rules of the galactic simulation, manipulating objects, species and entities within it, and even create/spawn new ones. This could be what the Borg cannot comprehend and are so ‘disturbed’ by, causing any cube which encounters the Admonition to go through a sub matrix collapse. The Borg do not fear as we know it, but they *do* act in measures to protect their own survival, just as much as the Romulans do.

 

[SG-17]

Without knowing extent of the damage caused by the virus, and also how much the Borg had recovered in the preceding 20 years, we just do not know for sure.

We do know the extent of the damage of the virus and how much the Borg recovered in the preceding 20 years based on what we saw and what was said in this episode.

The damage was catastrophic and terminal, and the Borg did not recover at all. The Frontier Day Plot was the last gasp of the Borg, the last chance to recover from the pathogen.

 

[Racefuel]

I think it's pretty clear that we know how much the Borg recovered after the events of Endgame

They didn't

Edit: Sorry @SG-17 my internet crapped out and didn't show you posted

 

[jackoverfull]

We do know the extent of the damage of the virus and how much the Borg recovered in the preceding 20 years based on what we saw and what was said in this episode.

The damage was catastrophic and terminal, and the Borg did not recover at all. The Frontier Day Plot was the last gasp of the Borg, the last chance to recover from the pathogen.

I wouldn’t be so sure: here we see how *this* queen fared, but on Lower Decks, Prodigy and in the first season of Picard we see cubes that were active at least to a point after the destruction of the unicomplex.

 

[Timofnine]

We do know the extent of the damage of the virus and how much the Borg recovered in the preceding 20 years based on what we saw and what was said in this episode.

The damage was catastrophic and terminal, and the Borg did not recover at all. The Frontier Day Plot was the last gasp of the Borg, the last chance to recover from the pathogen.

It was never stated which virus the Borg were recovering from, only assumed. If the Borg wanted to stop Janeway’s pathogen all they would have to do is erase Janeway from the timeline at any point in her life so that she never travels back in time to deliver the pathogen. This was the Borg Queens plan at the end of Endgame. It could still be a potential plan far easier than the convoluted (but fun!) plot from Picard season 3, but it wasn’t.

 

[SG-17]

I wouldn’t be so sure: here we see how *this* queen fared, but on Lower Decks, Prodigy and in the first season of Picard we see cubes that were active at least to a point after the destruction of the unicomplex.

There is no "this" Queen. There is just the Queen. The entirety of the Collective within an individual who had multiple bodies.

We see cubes that weren't destroyed outright, but none of them were fully functional or capable of traditional nanoprobe-based assimilation (we have no information on the status of the cube in LD other than drones were still in their alcoves). From what we know from Endgame and The Last Generation the Queen lost complete contact with the hive mind and/or the hive mind ceased to exist beyond the bounds of her cube.

 

[Racefuel]

Yeah it seemed like her scope of control continually contracted over the last twenty years and she "consumed" successively larger numbers of drones, cubes, etc to sustain herself until she was more or less alone and down to the lone remaining Ultra Cube

 

[Deks]

I wouldn’t be so sure: here we see how *this* queen fared, but on Lower Decks, Prodigy and in the first season of Picard we see cubes that were active at least to a point after the destruction of the unicomplex.

The only Borg cube we saw on Lower Decks if I'm not mistaken was holographic. Otherwise, we hadn't seen any other Borg appearances (except in hallucinations?).

EDIT: We have seen the actual Borg cube and drones of lower decks yes... but that Cube could have been the same one from Prodigy.

As for Prodigy... that cube wasn't active. It was in heavy sleep mode. It was for all intents and purposes inactive... and it was explained in the episode they lost the ability to use the nanoprobes.
The cube in question only went into sleep mode probably because it suffered damage. At this point its been years since Endgame, and if the cube was initially damaged, going into sleep mode may have helped this cube repair some of that damage, but the Borg on that cube didn't seem to have access to the larger Hive... they were in effect on their own/isolated.

And they went back to sleep after Prodigies interfered... maybe not for long, but its possible that the cube in question is the Artifact.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

And they went back to sleep after Prodigies interfered... maybe not for long, but its possible that the cube in question is the Artifact.

Aaron J. Waltke seemed to suggest on Twitter last week that the cube in question is supposed to be the same one that becomes "The Artifact".

https://twitter.com/GoodAaron/status/1647744636826558465?t=ajrH74u4TwdMswbBnh4bRg&s=19