Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 3x09 - "Võx"

[jaime]

I hate to be like, an epistemological stick in the mud but, does anyone else think the changelings' changeability as a suspect construction suggests that static person-hood is the only acceptable state of existence?

Please feel free to tell me I am a complete overthinker. I am just comparing to the fact that on DS9 we had Odo to show us that changeability isn't bad, even though it did seem like he felt the need to assimilate in order to be accepted. Whereas in this series, their changeability seems like it was just utilized to create fear and mask a more obvious threat without making very much commentary on anything.

Trek has regularly been a champion of individuality, and individuals working together, versus individual personality being subsumed under cultural or physiological uniformity.
At the same time, it has always had a kind of antagonistic relationship with many elements of transhumanism, or changing biology in many ways — genetic, cybernetic, and arguably even ideological (you do not leave the federation nor abandon its ideals, and species tend to stick to homogenous patterns within it) with few exceptions.
These Changelings are heretics twice over essentially, they have rejected their Dominion status, and not even to come closer to the federation, and they have adjusted their physiology. To be fair, that was initially something done to them, by elements in the federation. Later they did it to themselves as others joined. But that makes them into something pitied essentially.
This is on top of the thing that Odo, and presumably other shapeshifters have had to deal with — explaining why many other shapeshifting races keep it secret, and even the Trill keep what amounts to personality shapeshifting mostly secretive for a long time— which is a sort of uncanny valley effect when dealing with non-malleable races.
I do not think their status as shapeshifters this season was commentary — except in a very traditional ‘reds under the bed’ way — but their status as changelings were. They are the soldiers of the last war, mistreated by the victors, rejected by their own society. Led by zealotry, and given to brutality. I’ve said it before, but these guys are basically Isis or Daesh Changelings. Radicalised, and now buddied up with the other ‘old enemy’.
You could even argue the Borg Queen is Putin, I suspect.

 

[Bay17]

THe entire thing is a contrivance to get the TNG crew together on the Enterprise D. I really wouldn't think that much about it. This is about the end of an era, not anything else.

Exactly. There are a lot of posts on here about plot holes and lack of logic and “seems forced”. Of course it’s fn forced, it’s got an hour to advance the plot and show as much fan service as it can. It takes shortcuts to do that because it has to and it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a love letter to the old series.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I hate to be like, an epistemological stick in the mud but, does anyone else think the changelings' changeability as a suspect construction suggests that static person-hood is the only acceptable state of existence?

Please feel free to tell me I am a complete overthinker. I am just comparing to the fact that on DS9 we had Odo to show us that changeability isn't bad, even though it did seem like he felt the need to assimilate in order to be accepted. Whereas in this series, their changeability seems like it was just utilized to create fear and mask a more obvious threat without making very much commentary on anything.

You play fortnight?

When you play one of the popular characters off the wrack, you see 8 guys a minute playing the same mod you are, and you may feel less awesome, but the features still kick ass.

Vadic is a weapon.

It's a personality/shape that any of them can wear, and at any point, maybe hundreds of them are.

 

[jaime]

You play fortnight?

When you play one of the popular characters off the wrack, you see 8 guys a minute playing the same mod you are, and you may feel less awesome, but the features still kick ass.

Vadic is a weapon.

It's a personality/shape that any of them can wear, and at any point, maybe hundreds of them are.

I’m still waiting for Trek skins. There’s been one emote. One!
I do find it amusing that the changelings might have presets, and like to get rare skins or silly ones or sentimental ones. Though her crew seem to have a crap default ‘bird in a bin bag’ skin. Need to buy the battle pass.

 

[jackoverfull]

Calling it now: the finale will begin with a recreation or a straight-up reuse of the full TNG Opening animation.

Good plan to make us tear up again!

Depending on how exactly the episode is written, it feels like it might be odd for them to never (visibly) leave the bridge.

I think they didn’t recreate anything: they just went to one of the standing TNG set replicas that have been around for some time. And this easily explains why the bridge is in one of the configurations of the later seasons of the series, not in the one from Generations.
I don’t think we’ll see them leaving the bridge, although it would be nice to see them briefly in Ten Forwards (which they had recreated as CGI set in season 1).

On a side-note, I really don’t understand why they’ve been avoiding virtual sets. I guess the simple answer is that they just don’t save as much money as you expect,

Exactly: they have enormous advantages but they require the CGI and virtual sets to be pretty much finished BEFORE shooting, which is a big departure from how things have been done in the last decade.

but for starship bridge scenes like Shelby this week, or Riker in the season one finale, tight shots on one person in a chair with the background out of focus, it seems like the perfect use for a greenscreen or LED wall to show a bridge that isn’t a lightly-redressed standing set behind them

I think they didn’t have them in season 1 yet. But yes, this week’s episode would have been a good candidate for a virtual set.
In the other hand, guest bridges being obvious redresses of something else is very TNG!

They could have just had a 10 episode show where the crew meet up for a tour of the museum for Rikers birthday and it would have the same effect.

No: they’re going there for a good reason, not just for nostalgia’s sake.

Something was not clear. Was it Jack who sent the final signal to assimilate Starfleet personnel? Or is his role just to be a leading Borg, like Locutus, and the signal did not require him?

I seem to understand they couldn’t do it without him.

Seeing the D was great, although come on Geordi, you were keeping it as a surprise? When for? I mean Picard has died once. Of course it worked for the plot and you know its going to kick ass.

Geordi mentions it’s not finished yet and needs some work. Someone mentioned Picard’s 100th birthday and I like the idea.

I got the impression it wasnt decommission but destroyed the way Worf said it wasnt his fault

From how things were worded we don’t even know it was destroyed at all. Could be only damaged, lost or otherwise unavailable. They obviously want to keep their options open for future ideas.

Also, im sure its been mentioned but 77 pages is a lot to read, VOX was the name of a character in Shatners The Return.

I mentioned it some 20 pages ago. And not any character, but the Romulan counterpart of Locutus!

 

[Bay17]

Why? Because I want Trek to being neck deep in Trek? If I want to watch people cavorting around present day Los Angeles, there's fifteen different police procedurals for me to choose from.

Agreed. It’s the same reason I don’t like mirror universe shit. It’s like ooh let’s see what we can do with these characters just for fun!

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

Exactly. There are a lot of posts on here about plot holes and lack of logic and “seems forced”. Of course it’s fn forced, it’s got an hour to advance the plot and show as much fan service as it can. It takes shortcuts to do that because it has to and it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a love letter to the old series.

But theu didn't have just an hour. They had 10 hours, and a lot of the earlier hours didn't exactly push the plot along hard.

I was thinking about it, and I think I enjoyed the scenes of "the old crew working together" better in All Good Things. Partly that's because the music was better, but also partly because they didn't overdo it. A nod and a wink, a knowing smile, but mostly they worked together to do the job.

 

[Campe]

Exactly. There are a lot of posts on here about plot holes and lack of logic and “seems forced”. Of course it’s fn forced, it’s got an hour to advance the plot and show as much fan service as it can. It takes shortcuts to do that because it has to and it doesn’t really matter, it’s just a love letter to the old series.

Personally, one of my issues is that the season is pretty horribly paced. You had the premiere setting everything up, three episodes in the nebula, the amazing Ro episode and then three episodes where honestly not a lot happened then bam! Here comes the last two episodes and the first one is overloaded but there’s still a lot to resolve. The changelings are set up as the baddie, conveniently taken out in episode 8 and then who shows up in the second to last episode? The Borg. Because of course they do. I wish they could have focused less on the Jack mystery box and more on actually getting to the bottom of the problem. There was no urgency. And yeah, it’s great seeing the crew of the Enterprise I grew up with back together again on their ship. But not when the story is forced and has massive leaps of logic just to get to the nostalgia.

 

[Bay17]

Personally, one of my issues is that the season is pretty horribly paced. You had the premiere setting everything up, three episodes in the nebula, the amazing Ro episode and then three episodes where honestly not a lot happened then bam! Here comes the last two episodes and the first one is overloaded but there’s still a lot to resolve. The changelings are set up as the baddie, conveniently taken out in episode 8 and then who shows up in the second to last episode? The Borg. Because of course they do. I wish they could have focused less on the Jack mystery box and more on actually getting to the bottom of the problem. There was no urgency. And yeah, it’s great seeing the crew of the Enterprise I grew up with back together again on their ship. But not when the story is forced and has massive leaps of logic just to get to the nostalgia.

Yeah fair enough. They certainly did strung out parts of it. And lots of standing around with Picard and Crusher looking at each other, rather than real tension

 

[Quantum21]

Personally, one of my issues is that the season is pretty horribly paced. You had the premiere setting everything up, three episodes in the nebula, the amazing Ro episode and then three episodes where honestly not a lot happened then bam! Here comes the last two episodes and the first one is overloaded but there’s still a lot to resolve. The changelings are set up as the baddie, conveniently taken out in episode 8 and then who shows up in the second to last episode? The Borg. Because of course they do. I wish they could have focused less on the Jack mystery box and more on actually getting to the bottom of the problem. There was no urgency. And yeah, it’s great seeing the crew of the Enterprise I grew up with back together again on their ship. But not when the story is forced and has massive leaps of logic just to get to the nostalgia.

That nebula, slowly I turned...

 

[Romulan_spy]

RMB interview with Sean Tretta, the writer for this ep. Lots of nice behind the scenes info. I did not know that due to budget constraints, they kept every single episode script to 40 pages.

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[jaime]

But theu didn't have just an hour. They had 10 hours, and a lot of the earlier hours didn't exactly push the plot along hard.

I was thinking about it, and I think I enjoyed the scenes of "the old crew working together" better in All Good Things. Partly that's because the music was better, but also partly because they didn't overdo it. A nod and a wink, a knowing smile, but mostly they worked together to do the job.

AGT has the same problem the TNG movies did though — no time gap. No time to miss the characters.
What this is doing is giving our generation their TMP moment at last. And all the other TOS movies as well, all at once.
It’s a pretty neat job too, as though they were mindful to avoid any criticism for not reintroducing everything in a way that makes sense.
It was very slow paced at first, but I think it makes sense in the way the pieces were moved around the board. The last two episodes could have stood to move a little faster, but really what it needed is another two episodes after where we are now, so it balances better.
On the other hand, last episode is a full hour, not a TV hour, so I guess it depends how we wrap up, and what is left open.

I can’t imagine they won’t go back to this time period given how well received this has all been, and I imagine the other nineties Trek crews waiting in the wings for just a little more screen time.

I suspect ENT is done for though.

 

[jaime]

RMB interview with Sean Tretta, the writer for this ep. Lots of nice behind the scenes info. I did not know that due to budget constraints, they kept every single episode script to 40 pages.

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Budget is the real noticeable problem this season. But the performances have really taken up the weight.

 

[Quantum21]

RMB interview with Sean Tretta, the writer for this ep. Lots of nice behind the scenes info. I did not know that due to budget constraints, they kept every single episode script to 40 pages.

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Almost every episode was a bottle show. Not surprising

 

[Bay17]

Agreed. Personally, I'm trying to accept it for what it is--a TNG closure. I think they need that, having never really had one.

I just wish there was a bit more to it than just that. But again, trying to enjoy the ride. And I was doing so well for most of the season too!

But I have taken to heart what people have said here about this taking them back to a comfortable place. I respect that. So glad they're enjoying it and getting something out of it.

Well said. I’m just watching it for the old characters doing their stuff. Riker is great, and having Data back is a real treat.

I’m clearly very easily pleased! Which is partly just a function of getting older. I mean, I even liked the Rise of Skywalker. Who cares about the plot holes and Mary Sues - look it’s Luke! And I like Rey and BB8. Glad to see she’s coming back in a new film.

Yep, very easily pleased

 

[BBC 2 6pm]

AGT has the same problem the TNG movies did though — no time gap. No time to miss the characters.

Oh I agree totally! But I think if they had done the reunion more like say, TWOK and the AGT scenes, it would have felt much less forced: some nods to how they are happy to be together again (with eg Chekov), but mostly forced together by circumstances and working together. Also let the 'new' characters (Seven/Shaw/Saavik) play a major role and don't force them to the side. If eg Seven and Shaw had taken up stations on the D and discussed their plans for when they get back to Sol, I think I would have felt much more nostalgic than just seeing the old gang and the old gang only forced back together.

 

[MisterD]

This episode broke me. I was full on board of the Picard hype train when EP8 moved me to tears (I am glad I have my friend back.) and ready to overlook all the minor stuff that wasnt perfect. But then, it happened. Picard told Jack what is actually wrong with him, and a bit of dialogue pulled me right ot of the episode.

Jack: "So how much of me is me? Oh, funny! I've always known the world was imperfect. Broken systems, wars, suffering, violence, poverty, bigotry. And I always thought, if people could only see each other, hear each other, speak in one voice, act in one mind together...Who knew a little cybernetic authoritarianism was the answer?"

Who ever thought it was a good idea to write this bit of dialogue must either be totally unaware of the political and social climate, or be a massive troll. Oh watch out folks...its the authoritarians again and they sound like Bernie Sanders. Better dont open the red door.

From then on my brain was set on cynicism. And the next funny bit came along. Conveniently everybody under 25 is now controlled by the Borg. (Geordi should have never sent his daughter to college..) Damn millenials useless as always. But there was still one problem. One person who dared to question the best generation and their ways. Few moments later Shaw lies dead on the ground. Shot. ("If only he had more guns he could have stopped the bad guy" my brain chuckles and immediately follows up with "why did they have to make it political" decending into madness.)

Should have called the show Boomer saves the universe.

 

[keoluperalto]

... ok, so what is the deal with old Borg and future Borg? ... enlighten me between season 2 and 3 storyline flow.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I really don't know what to make of this episode. My initial feelings are 'it was complete shit'.

We're supposed to believe that every ship in the fleet has a changeling onboard and the changes they have made to the transporter systems went completely unnoticed by anyone. No Starfleet doctor noticed that everyone under 25 was having their DNA REWRITTEN to become Borg? We're also supposed to believe that Starfleet thought having all of their ships networked was a good idea. I have trouble believing that any Starfleet Admiral or Captain would be ok with implementing a obvious tactical vulnerability into the entire fleet. We know that the changelings hadn't completely taken over the chain of command, so surely someone had to kick up a fuss about this.

The Borg plan hinges on the fact that Starfleet are apparently incredibly stupid and learned nothing from previous incidents with dangerous AI. The Borg are equally stupid. Why didn't tjust assimilate EVERYONE and not just the under 25's. Why allow such an obvious avenue of resistance from Starfleet veterans, some of whom have faced the Borg before and know how to beat them?

Shaw started out strong at the beginning of the season but he ended up being a complete nothing of a character, an ineffectual backseat driver on his own bridge ( i mean the few times he was actually in the centre seat). The fact that it took him getting a phaser hole in the chest to see the error of his ways and to stop being a bigot to Seven is just downright insulting.

The Borg coming in this late in this season just feels tacked on and their apparent alliance with the Changelings feels like it came out of nowhere. The reveal about what Jack is should have come at least an episode ago.

This episode was a convoluted mess and quite frankly if this had been an episode of Discovery, there's no way people would be praising this writing and this plot as 10 out of 10 stuff. Like no fucking way. There is no way that Discovery would get away with Starfleet being portrayed as so blatantly stupid and negligent, the Borg assimilating everyone under 25, the sheer amount of plot contrivances, and setting the fanwank to post no-nut november levels. Hypocrisy thy name is Trekkie.

I swear to god the finale better be two hours long for all this shit to make sense.

 

[Campe]

I can’t imagine they won’t go back to this time period given how well received this has all been, and I imagine the other nineties Trek crews waiting in the wings for just a little more screen time.

I’m sure that’s going to happen. And if they can actually focus on other things than just continuously going back to the well, I’m good with it. Otherwise it’s going to get boring quickly.

I suspect ENT is done for though.

Yeah, I think that’s been done.