• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 2x04 - "Watcher"

Rate the episode...


  • Total voters
    210
then why does bus punk remember his encounter with Spock in TVH?
Nothing in the episode indicates he does.

It was fun easter egg anyways, don't take it seriously.

Picard and company are present at a point before any changes.
Yes, but from the perspective of the future, the change already happened, so there was no Federation Picard to go back in time to interact with 19th Century Guinan.

Once they prevent the change, everything will return to normal.

Look at Yesterday's Enterprise and Past Tense.
 
"Punk on Bus", as I believe he was credited in Star Trek 4, is obviously a being of trans-temporal origins and travels between the various threads of the Multiverse. His appearance in the Marvel Cinematic Universe proved this. Therefore, he would have some sort of awareness of ripples in time similar to Guinan and the Borg Queen.
 
Last edited:
Except once the timeline is corrected Guinan shouldn't remember that. In fact, once the timeline is corrected, the sequence of events leading to timeline correction (Guinan not remembering Picard but helping him anyway) are erased. The universe should explode.

That's why I preferred the straightforward time travel rules better where every time travel to the past, even from alternate futures, happened. Enterprise 'Regeneration' still happened in the history of the Kelvin Timeline.

Also as a minority myself (albeit asian and not black), I'm wondering if the unintentional implied message of people of color having it worse in 2024 than they did in 1893 is a bit... look, I'm the first to say minorities have it bad right now but I think it might be a bit over the top. Guinan was with the social elite like Mark Twain. Over a hundred years later she's at the bottom of society.
Actually Guinan should remember some aspect of it in the same way she remembered aspects of TNG S3 - "Yesterday's Enterprise" after that particular timeline corrected itself.

In fact they should have made it that Guinan did remember some aspects of her meeting with Picard in the 19th Century in TNG S5 - "Time's Arrow" as it's known that her species has a perception beyond linear time < --- which was referenced in TNG more than once.

And I guess either Whoopi Goldberg wasn't up to it, her schedule didn't permit, or the writers (or she) didn't want to risk having her on a set outside. I was very disappointed they got a different actress to portray young Guinan.

I was kind of hoping we'd see some sort of direct confrontation between Guinan and Q as well; because remember in TNG S2 - "Q Who", both characters raise their hands as if they were Wizards about to wield their powers against each other. That's one aspect of Guinan they never explored in TNG, and unfortunately it doesn't look like they're going to explore it any further here either.:wah: ;)
 
Last edited:
The NASA emblem shows up at the end of the episode, but it's old style 'worm' logo, like the one seen in TNG The Royale, not the current emblem
unknown.png

1000.png
 
Well, that was...an episode. :thumbdown:

I had such high hopes after the premier, but once again lazy writing is just turning this to drivel.

Guinan is so totally out of character here that I thought the 'real' Guinan was hiding in the back and would eventually show herself. The reason the events of Time's Arrow aren't remembered have been adequately addressed- but not by the writers in show as they should have been. Again, all it would have taken was a line or two and the whole mess becomes clear and unconvoluted. I began to feel like the BTTF cast drawing out timelines and their various effects and splits on a chalkboard, trying to sort the temporal mechanics.

I'm tired of ham-handed social commentary. Trek has always been about social commentary, but in the past it was (for the most part) done so much better and subtly than it is here. There have always been exceptions, of course- I think I was 7 or 8 the first time I saw "Let that be your last battlefield" and I had it figured out waaaay before Kirk and Spock did. So yeah, writers, do your thing, but FFS let's get back to allegory and eloquent commentary, not cut-and-past FB posts popped into your scripts.

Punk on a bus- I had no idea it was the same actor/character, it has been so long since I've seen STIV. So while I did LOL, his reaction at the end was a total eye-roller for me: "Yup. Another emasculated 'male' meekly caves to his feminist overlords..." Now that I know this is supposedly the same guy, I have to ask- why is he still carrying a boom box in 2024? :wtf: Oh- because there is no 'joke' without it. All that aside, I did get a chuckle here.

For a bunch of trained starfleet officers attempting to minimize changes to the timeline, their actions are totally out of character. Raffi and Seven don't even make a cursory search for Rios' com-badge, Picard tells Guinan everything, and Rios (in an admitted harmless way) does the same thing with the ICE guard. Then Raffi and Seven steal a police vehicle and then transport out of it in front of the LAPD. (This after Jurati tells them to stop because the transporter can't hit a moving target, with no consideration given as to the consequences of 'rapturing-out' of an SUV rolling at high speed through a densely populated city block... :rolleyes:. Ethics? Fuck those, apparently- as well as who knows how many timeline changes when the SUV rolls through a window and kills your own ancestor...)

I'm willing to entertain the idea that Laris is actually Isis from "Gary Seven", especially given the transporter effect at the end. Mostly because I can't think of any other reason for the actual Laris (who we heard was killed in an uprising up-time) should be on Earth in 2024 as an obviously not-Romulan agent. Because in 2024 there had been no contact whatsoever between the Romulans and pre-warp drive Earth, and even with their lifespans, this is waaaay before Laris's time. Unless Laris has been ret-conned into something other than what she seems for the entire show.

So, the La Sirena is in France? How TF do you transport through the Earth's core to Los Angeles? Oh yeah- plot. Once again, just tired, lazy writing. With a cloaking device, they could have put down anywhere, especially knowing where they needed to go before the time jump. Same problem for comms- Jurati even mentions it (no relays), then somehow magically solves it. Nice hand-wave.

Anyway, I'm also tired of 2024. We've all lived through the shit-show of the past few years, and as others have said, if you want to address the issues of this day and age there are a ton of contemporary shows that do it better. Unfortunately, the story here is resolved when the timeline is saved, so I think we might be 'stuck in the past' for the balance of this season, which so far seems to be evolving into an un-inspired redo of STIV without any of the attendant charm.

I don't understand any of this. For instance, why do you think you'd have to transport "through the Earth's core" to transport from France to California? I just looked it up and the range of a 24th Century transporter is about 40,000 kilometers and the alternate timeline for all intents and purposes is the same technology level as "our" 24th Century (well, 25th Century now.) Last time I checked, France and California were less than 40,000 kilometers from each other.
 
If the timeline changed hadn’t already impacted the Prime Universe’s history then Picard, Seven, Raffi, Rios, Agnes and Elnor wouldn’t be in alternate bodies with a Confederatation La Sirena. Because the The Confederation’s future history has overwritten their normal history there was no version of Time’s Arrow.

Q already altered the timeline on the 15th, and Picard and co. have gone back to the 12th to now stop that alteration, but it’s already been done, cross-temporally speaking, because the future has already been changed.

The showrunner/writers have confirmed it’s their line of thinking as well.
I think I will go with that explanation even though it doesn't really make sense. Clearly, the writers intended it to be as you say. They should've had Picard appear confused at the lack of recognition and then utter a quick aside about that mission not occurring. But it doesn't explain the bus punk.
 
The timeline hasn't been changed yet... the event that affects the future is happening in 3 days. I feel like I'm watching a different show than a lot of people here?
 
It occurred to me that when Picard fixes the timeline, Guinan might all of a sudden regain memories of Time's Arrow and I'd forgive all this current confusion if we get a nice scene of that.
Well I think she already does because honestly when did her and Picard ever 'jump universes' together (which is something she said to him before Q showed up to tell him of the timeline change); and the fact TNG S5 " Time's Arrow", never happened, even though Q didn't change the timeline until 2024 would effectively make what they're in now a totally different universe.;)

( Like Chief O'Brien I hate temporal mechanics...:angel:)
 
The timeline hasn't been changed yet... the event that affects the future is happening in 3 days. I feel like I'm watching a different show than a lot of people here?
The change in the future had ripple effects in the past. If the future is changed such that Picard never travelled back to 1897, then there would be changes in that era as well.

ETA nice username. We have a Spaceman spiff here as well.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top