star trek nemesis 16th anniversary

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by pst, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can see we're 3 of the 10 people that liked Nemesis. I too liked it. It was my 2nd favorite TNG film (behind FC of course) and probably around 8th or 9th place overall (I definitely put Generations, Insurrection and TFF behind it, in that order).

    Nemesis and First Contact are the only 2 TNG movies that felt like they belonged in a movie theater and not on TV. It's not a perfect film, I agree with some of the complaints. PST makes some good points. The cinematography isn't nearly as good--that was one highlight I thought of Insurrection that was lost here.

    I agree with Lance, there are some elements that foreshadow the Abramsverse movies. It has an overemphasis on action. The opening scene (sans credits), an almost overwhelming enemy vessel in the Scimitar (which in some ways reminded me of the Narada--or vice versa I guess--with it's sharp angles and dark interior--and of the Vengeance in STID) and I even noticed a couple of lens flares (ok I just threw that in there for fun--there were more in the way of lens flares in Nemesis then previous productions but nothing like the light explosion that would be Star Trek [2009]).

    I also eye rolled the whole dune buggy scene and some elements of the B4 storyline. But I thought some of the other characters had more to do. The battle scene was one of the best in the movie franchise. I remember hearing some complaints about TUC and FC that the battle scenes were ok but were lacking in dimension and intensity. Here you get a 3 dimensional battle that is sustained and intense. And the ramming scene was one of my favorites (I know some people complain about the science of that scene but how can you not like the visuals). I also like some of the themes, though I wish they were better developed. They were trying to pose a philosophical question would Picard be just like Schinzon in the same environment due to their shared genetics---but it wasn't fully developed.

    So yeah, I liked Nemesis, I have it on Blu-Ray and watch it. I've noted in the past I wonder how much of the hate it gets has to do with 2 things. One it was released at the worse possible time against huge competition. Paramount should have released it when there was a bit less competition. They were going against Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings and a 007 film. Idiotic of Paramount to release it at the time and as a result it didn't fare well at the box office, so it's easy to hate because of it's poor box office returns. Also I sometimes wonder if group think plays into it. Everyone else hates it so it must be bad sort of thing. Now, to be clear, I'm not dismissing peoples complaints, or that some people would hate it even if it were the number 1 film for 3 weeks and considered at least an average film. There are some Trekkies for whatever reason dislike TWOK, FC or Star Trek (2009). But I wonder if some people had watched it without ever hearing a word about it might hate it less, or even maybe like it a little? Well, it's a question impossible to answer (unless you can find someone that lived in a cave for the last 16 years).
     
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  2. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I remember how I felt leaving the theater about Nemesis. The actors looked tired and the story was underwhelming. I didn't feel anything over Data's death, which should've been a major moment. I felt that Patrick Stewart was mostly being Patrick Stewart and not Picard, and overall the film lacked the nice character moments that are like the glue of a Trek film, that make you feel like spending time with old friends. I felt that Nemesis was a big whiff of a film.

    I got it used on DVD anyway, because I am a Trek fan and a TNG fan/DS9 fan especially. On home video the visuals and color-while darker-did seem to pop more to me and were vibrant. I appreciated Tom Hardy's performance as Shinzon more, though I still don't think the concept fully worked. I came to appreciate the climatic battle more, and I do feel that Nemesis is the most cinematic looking of the TNG Trek films-really most of the Trek films period (with the exception of The Motion Picture) up to that point. Looking at the DVD extras, I don't get why they didn't include those. I think the deleted ending was much better and felt more Trek than what we got. It would've been nice to get the Madden scene as well.

    Some things that have always bugged we was that it should've been Geordi-not Riker giving the eulogy for Data. The Data-Geordi friendship was one of the best things in TNG (which Nemesis does show in earlier scenes) and it would've been nice to have done more to put a punctuation on that. That being said, I thought the scene between Geordi and Troi when they realized that Data was gone was very emotionally affecting and I thought both actors did a great job there. I wish we had gotten more with Wesley, and also included Dr. Pulaski, and Ro at the wedding (heck have them all as part of the crew of the Titan). I also wish there had been some explanation for Worf returning to Starfleet and his old role. If anything, he could've just been hitching a ride with the crew on his way back to his ambassadorial duties. Adding a new first officer earlier, a new security chief earlier, and doing more with the new helmsman (before killing him off) would've helped with the theme of change. I liked Daniels from First Contact and Kell from Insurrection and would've been happy to see them both return. (I still think killing off Hawk was a waste).

    As I've said millions of times on Nemesis threads, Shinzon's motivation was too convoluted. But I do think Hardy made for a good villain, just he was hampered by the script, maybe the direction. I also didn't like that the Romulans never got to be the real villains in a TNG movie. (I also wish we had gotten at least one TOS movie-style Romulan bird-of-prey, along with uniforms and weapons). I did like the Remans. I thought they looked cool, had a nice aesthetic, but I still wish the Romulans had gotten their due. Plus, the film wasted Ron Perlman. No offense to Hardy or Shinzon, but Perlman's Viceroy could've also been a pretty good main villain.

    I also wasn't a fan of B4. It bugged me that no one mentioned Lore. (Having Lore instead of B4 would've made more sense anyway. Shinzon and Lore were both dark mirrors for the two main protagonists). It also would've been great to have Tomalak and Sela in this film. While I did like Donatra, I think that arc would've been great for Sela, and meant more for it to be her to finally put her hatred to the side and help Picard.

    I thought the Troi mental assault scene was too much, they had done that before, and it seems like it was a sign they didn't know what to do with Troi and just threw in something. It also provided Riker with a 'bad ass' scene that also felt unnecessary. I wish they had just spent the money on building the USS Titan and put Riker and Troi on there and then had them swoop in to assist the Enterprise at the end.

    Overall, while not a great film, and still pretty low on my list, I do think Nemesis was a good looking film and one that has some re-watch value if you just want to put on something that looks nice.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
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  3. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    you are 100% correct here. nemesis isn't a good movie (in my opinion) but it does go out of its way to be cinematic. all of these movies are bogged down by limited budgets, but first contact and nemesis are the only ones that have stories that feel larger than just the usual two-part episode.
    as far as i can remember, i was disappointed by both insurrection and nemesis when i saw them in theaters. but over time, i've grown fonder of insurrection and more disdainful of nemesis. to me, disappointing or not, insurrection is at least a solid TNG adventure where nemesis feels hollow and joyless and quite unlike the TNG i grew up with.
     
  4. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

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    Great post, and as a fan of the film myself a very fair assessment of the movie.

    I rewatch nemesis as much as any trek movie, easily twice a year. I absolutely accept it's shortcomings - perlman wasted, silly plot at times (though PLENTY of trek movies are guilty of this), some cheap looking sets, an embarrassing 'action' sequence with riker at the end (just turn the fucking lights up, you even hinted at this earlier in the movie FFS!) the buggy, the whiff of cribbing from TWOK, the list is extensive and I haven't listed them all.

    But... I even though data's death scene could have been way better, the scenes immediately after on the bridge and the wake part both always bring a tear to my eye.

    As does the wedding scene - Picards 'family' part to his speech always feels heartfelt and makes me feel emotional. I think it gives the film a bit of heart that is overlooked in my view. I actually liked data singing too, it's only brief and goes straight into the excellent goldsmith score, (which is as good as FC and better than insurrection), and a nice shot of the enterprise, which looked the best it ever did in this film, the FX in general were a big step up in quality from the previous 2 films as they should with the film's age in comparison. The end battle was and remains one of my favourite space battles in all of cinema, never mind this franchise, I find it to be HUGELY entertaining and bombastic and really raises the stakes in the movie in a way that the insipid 'insurrection' could only dream of.

    I really appreciated the darker, more adult tone of film at times too, with the assassination of the romulan senate scene being suitably grim, and shinzons death being another example, the dumb humour of it's predecessor being largely absent.

    Overall the pluses outweigh the negatives for me, I just find it to be a flawed, but entertaining sci fi action thriller that I always enjoy rewatching.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2018
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  5. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    It's pretty stupid to have the Enterprise make negotiations in Romulan space, a neutral site would've been more logical. I didn't feel the stakes were high to accomplish what was there in the movie. As you've mentioned, DarKush, there were some missed opportunities and this was supposed to be the final movie. I would've like the movie to finally explore Betazed and somehow linked the plot to that world, maybe even include some internal politics between the Betazoids and the Romulans. Something to expand and make the quest for peace more interesting, but everything in that film was hollow and the cast didn't present themselves as if it was the last film. It was like the producers were telling them it wasn't the last film, unless this one does tremendously well... which it will. To be fair, these actors and producers ran off the rails since the first movie and I don't know how they could've reel themselves back into the nuances of TNG tv series. Utopia was dead and everything Star Trek was dark and out of character-- heck after 16 years it still is and I don't think Star Trek will ever go back there ever again.
     
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  6. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think you hit it on the head for me as well. I acknowledge, and even agree with some of the faults others cite. But I judge a movie first by whether I was entertained or not. Overall I was entertained and still am when I watch Nemesis. For me at least, it makes it easier to overlook its faults. Now, there are better Star Trek films yes. Nemesis is definitely in the bottom half for me, but I have it in my collection and like you pull it out to watch periodically, usually when I'm in a TNG-movie mood (when I'll watch all 4).

    [LEFT][SIZE=4][COLOR=rgb(20, 20, 20)]
    In all fairness, the Federation and Romulus were allies during the Dominion War, and the Bellerophon had already visited Romulus during the war. It wasn't a warm and fuzzy alliance, but by that point the long, cold war was over and the Federation Council was probably hopeful with new leadership that apparently wanted to talk that a more permanent peaceful relationship was on the horizon. I never really had an issue with the Enterprise going to Romulus. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/LEFT]
     
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  7. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Worf's voice (deepened in post-production) was just weird.

    Maybe it was a result of his second puberty in ST:INS.
    Yeah, that's my in-universe "head canon" explanation from now on. :techman:

    Kor
     
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  8. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    something else i was thinking about today (because this is what i think about instead of what i get paid to think about):

    riker and troi getting married to me demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of their relationship. riker and troi weren't the will-they-won't-they couple of TNG (that was picard and crusher). they were the former lovers who developed a friendship and working relationship that was stronger than their former romantic relationship. i appreciate that the movie attempted to move their relationship along, but it would've been better served focusing on picard and crusher.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
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  9. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    After reading some of the latest posts, I had a few more thoughts about the film. I agree that Picard and Crusher should have been a thing in the films. That the films should have moved them to that. I wish it had been Beverly that was Picard's wife inside the Nexus and that from that point on, with the grim incentive provided in GEN that Picard would move to develop a relationship with Crusher and we could have seen that play out over the four films. That being said, I didn't have a problem with Riker and Troi getting together, it was a sign of closure in a way, but I would've liked for them to do more with them in Nemesis than they did, to give them less embarrassing storylines.

    I was okay with the Enterprise going to Romulus, though I wish they had taken a page from DS9 and had warbirds ringed around Romulus. Though meeting elsewhere would've been fine too. Nimbus III, Planet of Galactic Peace, anyone? I just found it hard to accept that Shinzon would want to destroy Earth more than Romulus. The Enterprise crew fighting to protect Romulus I think would've meant more and we could've closed out the franchise with peace between the Romulans and Federation. TWOK was the wrong film to copy. They should've looked to The Undiscovered Country.

    I also wish they had come up with something different than Shinzon needing Picard's blood. I don't see why Picard just couldn't have the blood replicated. Granted, it was something personal, that anyone watching could grasp, but it also felt dumbed down. There could've been political reasons or something more scientific driving Shinzon. Or what if he needed the blood, Picard supplied it, and Shinzon still turned on him? Though I guess Shinzon needing the blood made him more like the vampiric Remans than I had realized until just now.
     
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  10. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    I don't believe Nemesis mentioned anything about the Dominion War or the absurd idea of Worf being some Ambassador; all of that was forgotten when the film came around because the producers were moving on. I don't get why they went with the Romulans when they couldn't had another Borg story, TBH the Borg was the enemy for TNG and the Romulans never held much weight. Peace with the Borg would've been a better idea, the work would've hard for a resolution but I think it would've been worth the effort. This was the problem with Berman being the producer of everything Star Trek because he couldn't get out of the TV box. His grade as an Executive Producer B-, and as a Motion Picture producer F.
     
  11. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think that was something carried over from Insurrection. It was pretty clear I thought at the end of Insurrection that Troi and Riker were redeveloping their feelings for each other. So I wasn't surprised when they were getting married in Nemesis. I do like how their relationship was further developed in the Titan novels. I think the novels have handled that well.

    It was mentioned that the Remans were used as cannon fodder by the Romulans during the Dominion War, and they mentioned some of Shinzon's exploits during the war. I wasn't too surprised by the cold peace between the Federation and Romulans in Nemesis. They were allies of necessity during the War basically. So since the war was over the relationship likely had chilled a bit. It sort of made sense when Shinzon made his overtures for peace the Federation was probably hopeful for a warming of the relationship. But it's one of the points I wish the film had made better. I sort of had to figure that out on my own, films shouldn't leave you to try to figure things out based on empirical evidence. They don't have to spoon feed you, but a few clues would be nice (a line like "since the war ended our relationship with the Romulans have cooled a bit").

    The Romulans were used I think because one of the complaints about the films had been that the Romulans were seen very little in the films. Now, personally, I would have liked to have seen more Romulans. I maybe wouldn't have created the Remans in the first place, and maybe go with some of the previous novels' themes that Romulans that lived on Remus were still Romulans, but a more rough hewn variety. Shinzon could have led a band of Romulan rebels from Remus (they could have kept the idea of Reman Romulans being a lower class even).
     
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  12. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^
    I like where you are going with that. Could have even been where Nero came from in Star Trek (2009) as a tie-in.

    The Borg were the big enemy for TNG, though the Romulans were used more often. Arguably so were the Cardassians and even the Ferengi. VOY had declawed the Borg by the end of their run so I'm glad we didn't get a revisit of them in Nemesis. It is a shame we never got to see the Dominion in a TNG film. I would've rather seen the Romulans or Dominion in Insurrection. I did like the Son'a though, though I wish we had seen them later on, on DS9. They had cool looking ships, not a bad backstory, and F. Murray Abraham gave a good performance. There was some potential there, a bit more realized than with the Remans even. It would've been nice to see Q in a film as well.
     
  13. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That was a big disappointment I had about Insurrection at the time. Since the Dominion War was raging at that time on DS9 I thought they could have found some way to incorporate that into the movie (in such a way that it didn't require you to be familiar with DS9). Instead there were just a few throwaway lines, one about Dominion negotiations at the beginning of the movie, Ru'afo's reference about the Federation being attacked by the Borg, Cardassians and Dominion, and a veiled reference at the end when Picard says he can't abandon the Federation to people that would destroy it. There was actually more discussion of the Dominion War in Nemesis when they were discussing Shinzon and the Remans' role in the War. Over the years I've come to terms with Insurrection but at the time it was a huge disappointment.

    I would have loved to have seen the Enterprise pitted against a Jem'Hadar warship in Insurrection. Hell, even if they threw in a battle at the beginning of the film in a teaser sequence...something, an opportunity to see the Enterprise make a contribution to the war on screen (instead of just in novels). Maybe in place of that first contact gala they had in the lounge (I guess that was the Happy Bottom Lounge talked about in the novels)

    But yeah, they did a great film with the Borg in FC, and while I actually didn't mind them too much on Voyager, I didn't feel any need to revisit them in a movie.

    And yeah, I would have loved to see Q in one of the films. He was one major element on TNG (even though he was only seen 7 times I think it was on TNG) that was missed in the movies.
     
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  14. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    this is old news, i watched this last night and found myself more entertained than when i watched the film itself. so hopefully one or two of you out there haven't seen it.

    another note about nemesis: i hate the redesign of the enterprise-E (as it appears on screen, the concept art is lovey). the hull is too dark and the front is suddenly awfully flat and stumpy. thoughts?
     
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  15. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I thought the outside was largely much as it was since First Contact, though it's possible there were some changes I didn't pick up. I imagine because of the collision scene they maybe had to make some subtle changes to make that all work.

    I know some of the interiors were a bit different because in the previous 2 movies they reused some Voyager sets and since that show was off the air by the time Nemesis was made they had to reconstruct some of the sets.
     
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  16. tomalak301

    tomalak301 Admiral Premium Member

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    Well, I just watched Nemesis tonight. Here was what I just wrote on my letterboxd about the movie:

    It has to be probably 16 years since I originally saw this movie. I remember coming out of the theater and I was mad that not only did Data die (Spoilers, but the movie is 16 years old), but the tribute to him was so short. I also remember what could have been, a real Romulan movie where you brought back Sela or Tomalak and the movie ends kind of like The Undiscovered Country where the Next Gen crew is standing on the floor of the Romulan senate hand delivering Admiral Jerok's letter (From the episode "The Defector") to Donatra who is interim Preator.

    Jump forward 16 years and I wanted to rewatch this film to see if I still hate it or if there are things in it that I found better then before. I have to say overall, there are things in this film I really liked, but there are major things where the film in flawed. I liked the fight with the Scimitar, and the cinematography around that entire sequence was outstanding. I also liked Shinzon for the most part. I actually thought he was a well realized villain, and the idea that he was a clone with Picard was a fascinating one. There's a theme in this movie about the paths we take and how decisions we make shape our lives, and I think that is a better summation then what we got in the episode Tapestry where one decision affected Picard's entire life. I also loved the wedding reception between Riker and Troi and Brent Spiner is a great singer.

    However, I feel like there are things in this film that, if changed, would have made a far better film. For example, Data's death didn't need to drag so long to the doomsday clock. I mean you have Picard and Shinzon just standing there for what feels like eternity and Data comes and slams the patch on to him. Couldn't they have just shot the radiation field from a distance slapped the transporter patch on and the two of them come back together? Why did Data take it upon himself to go to the Scimitar to complete the mission? That really isn't explained and the silence feels like there should have been more dialouge to explain that whole thing. Also, finding B-4 and the Dune Buggy scene were not necessary to the entirety of the movie. Having B-4 there diminishes Data's death. Also, the mind rape scene with Troi was completely and utterly unnecessary and I'm surprised the writers left it in.

    Overall, I did like it better this time around. My problems with the movie are still there, but I think it's better then Insurrection because it actually feels like a movie, the musical score is brilliant, and it's amazing to look at. With a few directional changes and better dialogue, I think this could have been the TNG's swan song that they deserved, and their best movie of the four.
     
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  17. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I've never been one to take 'recieved opinion' particularly seriously, as I believe everything is ultimately subjective anyway, and I do find things to enjoy in Nemesis. But it's a movie that, to me, feels like it's been produced by the sausage factory, designed and packaged to resemble Star Trek rather than just *being* Star Trek. Whatever faults Insurrection has, in its DNA that movie is traditional The Next Generation all the way through. :)
     
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  18. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I do think there were elements of Nemesis that could have made it a much better film, things left undeveloped. Tomalak points some of those out. And I got where they were trying to go but it just felt like it could have been more.

    I do agree about Insurrection though. When I first saw it I was disappointed that it didn't have more to do with the war. But my stance on it has softened over time. It's compared to an episode of the TV series. Well I liked the TV series so that's not an instant critical flaw to me. It still had the character of TNG, maybe a bit overly self-righteous (after all I still can't feel that it seems odd Picard has such sympathy for the Ba'ku and not for the Maquis who were facing the same problem--though maybe he had a change of heart since the Maquis were wiped out by that point by the Dominion).
     
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  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    At least Nemesis was an attempt at something. Insurrection was literally a concerted, conscious attempt at virtually nothing.

    Nemesis is highly flawed and, at times, somewhat derivative. But, at least it plays and feels like a major motion picture. It certainly has some "classic TNG" ideas at its center. It has some great action set pieces, good performances by Hardy and Stewart, a good soundtrack, etc. For me, the ultimate test of anything Star Trek related is "did it entertain me?," while for many others it seems to be "did it meet or exceed my (often completely unreasonable fannish) expectations?"

    I think a lot of people dislike Nemesis for its flaws. A good deal more dislike it because Data died or because Sela and the Romans weren't in it or whatever. I can get my head wrapped around the first reason...but the ones focused on fan expectations not met I'll never agree with.

    I actually love it when Star Trek stuff goes against my expectations.
     
  20. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    insurrection ended up being virtually nothing, but they did attempt to do something different and not just replicate the tone and scale of first contact. nemesis feels like the producers copping to "ok no one liked insurrection so we should just go back and just do what first contact did". problem was, it was all superficial. they didn't mine what made first contact great, they just took the trappings and left the emotional core behind.

    so we get scenes with shinzon saying "resistance is futile" because man wasn't first contact great?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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