• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers Star Trek: Khan 1x01 - "Paradise"

Rate Episode 1

  • 10 - Excellent!

    Votes: 2 9.5%
  • 9

    Votes: 5 23.8%
  • 8

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • 7

    Votes: 5 23.8%
  • 6

    Votes: 2 9.5%
  • 5

    Votes: 1 4.8%
  • 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 1 - Terrible

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21
Oh, I did not know that. He was in Spy Kids and voiced in Kim Possible in the 00s so I had assumed that his health otherwise wasn't really that bad yet. :(

That was my understanding at least. I wasn't directly involved and only heard about it secondhand.

So I can't claim to know the full story.
 
You said that Khan and McGivers were both wrong about Cortez, can you expound upon that?
Khan's account was that Cortés burned his ships to quell a mutiny among his men and to motivate them to fight against all odds, since there was no way back.

McGivers’ version was that Cortés left one ship intact so that he would have a way back if the mission failed.

The truth was that there was no mutiny among Cortés’s troops; the actual mutiny was the one committed by Cortés; in 1518, after Governor Velazquez of Cuba revoked the charter for Cortés’s inland military expedition, Cortés went anyway.

A year later, in 1519, Cortés took control of the city of Veracruz, and his men elected him “Chief Justice,” enabling him to bypass the authority of Governor Velacruz and placing himself under the direct authority of King Charles V of Spain. It was at that time that Cortés scuttled his ships — not burning, but sinking by sabotage or by running them aground — to prevent desertions and retreat.

He also pretended to leave one vessel intact, on the pretense that he would allow those who still remained loyal to Velazquez to depart. But it was a ruse. All who accepted the offer were hanged, and then that last vessel was scuttled, as well.

So, in essence, both Khan and McGivers were wrong, and both were right. Khan was correct that Cortés destroyed his ships and left no other way back than conquest. But he was wrong about them burning, and about Cortés’s motive. McGivers was half right about the lone ship being left as a coward’s way out, but not for Cortés, but rather his enemies, who ended up executed. Both were engaged to a degree in revisionist history, twisting facts to serve their point of view in the argument.
 
So has any licensed material connected Marla McGivers to John Gill? Because I can only imagine that Gill's romanticization of authoritarian regimes influenced McGivers and that she was probably his student.
 
I finished listening to the first episode this morning, and I'm really enjoying it so far. As a big fan of both Lost and For All Mankind, I'm enjoying Naveen Andrews as Khan and Wrenn Schmidt as McGivers, and of course you can never go wrong with George Takei as Sulu and Tim Russ as Tuvok. I was little surprised by the reveal that they had kids on the Botany Bay, and while it does seem a bit odd this never came up during Space Seed, it is one of the easiest and simplest ways to explain where all of Khan's younger followers came from in The Wrath of Khan. It was nice to see them modernize McGivers a bit and give her a deeper motivation for why she went with Khan. I was a little surprised by how positively Khan's being portrayed in this. I know he wasn't as unstable in Space Seed, but he was still very much a bad guy, but this is almost making him heroic.
 
I know he wasn't as unstable in Space Seed, but he was still very much a bad guy, but this is almost making him heroic.
They doubled down on this by revealing that Kirk expunged Space Seed from his logs. This falls apart on closer observation. How did Kirk explain McGivers' disappearance to Starfleet Command, even if she had no family? And would he really not tell Starfleet about a guy who tried to take over his ship and personally put him in an oxygen deprivation tank? If Kirk really did do this, how was Morrow not ripping him to shreds in Search for Spock over the massive loss of life that Kirk's deleted report cost to the crews of the Reliant and the Enterprise? It makes more sense that Kirk DID report it to Starfleet Command and that it was them (or Section 31 for whatever reason) who covered it up.

Also with the audio's claim that Sulu was ALSO hanging around offscreen in Space Seed despite not appearing in the episode, we can probably combine this with WoK's retcon of Chekov's presence that Sulu was off in another section of the Enterprise training Chekov for his upcoming bridge duties.
 
They doubled down on this by revealing that Kirk expunged Space Seed from his logs. This falls apart on closer observation. How did Kirk explain McGivers' disappearance to Starfleet Command, even if she had no family? And would he really not tell Starfleet about a guy who tried to take over his ship and personally put him in an oxygen deprivation tank? If Kirk really did do this, how was Morrow not ripping him to shreds in Search for Spock over the massive loss of life that Kirk's deleted report cost to the crews of the Reliant and the Enterprise? It makes more sense that Kirk DID report it to Starfleet Command and that it was them (or Section 31 for whatever reason) who covered it up.
I don't think we've heard the whole story regarding Kirk's supposed redaction of the logs.
 
I was a little surprised by how positively Khan's being portrayed in this. I know he wasn't as unstable in Space Seed, but he was still very much a bad guy, but this is almost making him heroic.

They did say he was the best of the eugenics tyrants, with no massacres under his rule, though as little freedom. He's a conqueror, and that means he's ruthless to his enemies, but at the moment on Ceti Alpha V, he has no enemies (that he knows of) and no obstacles to his conquest, so he has no reason to bring out his ruthless side. It's like Alexander and Genghis, both of whom Marla compared Khan to -- they were both utterly brutal to those who opposed them, but benevolent and tolerant toward those who accepted their rule.
 
Did they say this was three years after Kirk "died?" That seems hard to reconcile with "Flashback," which gave the impression that Ensign Tuvok went ahead with his plan to resign his commission once his current assignment on the Excelsior was complete. Although I suppose it's possible that the assignment was for another three years, but the ship was just ending a three-year Beta Quadrant mission when TUC and "Flashback" happened.
Didn't The Lost Era novel The Sundered have Tuvok still serving on the Excelsior in 2298, five years after TUC and Kirk's presumed death in the Generations prologue?
 
The audio is 3 months after Kirk died. Tuvok would still be around. This incident with the unreasonable Khan-obsessed scientist might've been the last straw that made him snap and leave Starfleet.
 
The audio is 3 months after Kirk died. Tuvok would still be around. This incident with the unreasonable Khan-obsessed scientist might've been the last straw that made him snap and leave Starfleet.

Again, "Flashback" established that Tuvok already planned to resign at the time of TUC, so he wouldn't have needed a "last straw." It's just a question of how long it might be before his "current assignment" was scheduled to end.
 
Also with the audio's claim that Sulu was ALSO hanging around offscreen in Space Seed despite not appearing in the episode, we can probably combine this with WoK's retcon of Chekov's presence that Sulu was off in another section of the Enterprise training Chekov for his upcoming bridge duties.
He was in the stall next to Chekov’s.
 
Did they say this was three years after Kirk "died?" That seems hard to reconcile with "Flashback," which gave the impression that Ensign Tuvok went ahead with his plan to resign his commission once his current assignment on the Excelsior was complete. Although I suppose it's possible that the assignment was for another three years, but the ship was just ending a three-year Beta Quadrant mission when TUC and "Flashback" happened.

I just checked Chrissy's Transcript site and the Flashback novel and they both agree that Tuvok graduated from the Academy and had joined the Excelsior about a month before Praxis exploded, towards the end of its three year exploration of the Beta Quadrant.
The novel adds an extra scene at the end where Spock visits Tuvok onboard the Excelsior and convinces Tuvok to stay in Starfleet instead of resigning as he might learn to like humans and learn from them.
Tuvok subsequently stayed onboard for five years before leaving Starfleet to study Kohlinar.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top