Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 4x13 - "Coming Home"

[Vale]

Ah yes - the realisation the Universal Translator likely wouldn't work in spite of it's astonishing track record at deciphering new alien languages with only a few words input (save for that damned Darmok and Jilad at Tinagra)...

It worked perfectly there. The problem was that it was translating literally, and the language was based on metaphors. Idioms probably won't translate well, as we see even when people from the 23rd/24th centuries come up against 20th/21st century slang when ostensibly still speaking the same language.

 

[jackoverfull]

Ah, the power of plot.

not really: nothing in the plot indicated the UT wouldn’t work, they started saying it wouldn’t with no reason at all.

 

[TedShatner10]

With respect, the Starfleet "scientist dude" (or more accurately the writers) don't know what they're talking about. The Federation isn't a Type II civilisation. It's most likely something like a 1.5, in much the same way as we're a 0.5 today.

My apologies and to clarify, it was Dr. Hirai who classified Species 10C as Type 2 on the Kardashev scale and maybe higher (with their implied mastery of the Omega particle, plus power projection and matter manipulation that rivals V'Ger's, etc, so Type 3 in my book).

I get the impression Species 10C are a very prehistoric race of colonisers who migrated from the Andromeda Galaxy alongside the Kelvans. They have some vague similarities to Iain M. Banks' Dwellers (functionally immortal, super advanced jeovian gas dwellers), with a visual look inspired by the Reaper's creators.

A Type II civilisation can almost by definition build a Dyson sphere, which we know is beyond the Federation. The closest thing we've ever seen to a Type II civilisation in Star Trek is the Borg. Again, it's not just "interplanetary/interstellar/intergalactic" – it means "full control of all matter and energy of a planet/star/galaxy". If the 10C were a Type III, they'd be able to mine the entire galaxy at once. It'd be virtually impossible to portray a Type III because such a civilisation would be so far beyond our ability to comprehend it'd be almost impossible to write, much less show.

Star Trek is a pulp middle brow TV and movie franchise made within a production budget to entertain people, so their depiction of pan galactic socities is not relatively realistic like in Stephen Baxter, Arther C. Clarke, and Alastair Reynolds novels.

Dyson spheres/swarms, Ringworlds, and Halos are all just about within the techological and industrial means of the Borg, UFP, Dominion, and Romulans, but is that practical and necessary for their needs? Especially when Romulan ships use singularities as a power source, warp cores being universal, and you have the "red matter" produced by the Federation under Spock's watch, etc.

Plus Earth like planetoids are very plentiful and, though a flawed prototype, you had the Genesis Device miraculously forge a Earth like world out of a nebula.

A more realistic Species 10C would be 4D dark matter cube or sphere like constructs living on the skeins of supernova, etc, but that would perhaps be too boring and confusing to look at on television screens.

Here's an interesting YT vid on civilisation levels:

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[Vale]

My apologies and to clarify, it was Dr. Hirai who classified Species 10C as Type 2 on the Kardashev scale and maybe higher (with their implied mastery of the Omega particle, plus power projection and matter manipulation that rivals V'Ger's, etc, so Type 3 in my book).

I get the impression Species 10C are a very prehistoric race of colonisers who migrated from the Andromeda Galaxy alongside the Kelvans. They have some vague similarities to Iain M. Banks' Dwellers (functionally immortal, super advanced jeovian gas dwellers), with a visual look inspired by the Reaper's creators.



Star Trek is a pulp middle brow TV and movie franchise made within a production budget to entertain people, so their depiction of pan galactic socities is not relatively realistic like in Stephen Baxter, Arther C. Clarke, and Alastair Reynolds novels.

Dyson spheres/swarms, Ringworlds, and Halos are all just about within the techological and industrial means of the Borg, UFP, Dominion, and Romulans, but is that practical and necessary for their needs? Especially when Romulan ships use singularities as a power source, warp cores being universal, and you have the "red matter" produced by the Federation under Spock's watch, etc.

Plus Earth like planetoids are very plentiful and, though a flawed prototype, you had the Genesis Device miraculously forge a Earth like world out of a nebula.

A more realistic Species 10C would be 4D dark matter cube or sphere like constructs living on the skeins of supernova, etc, but that would perhaps be too boring and confusing to look at on television screens.

Here's an interesting YT vid on civilisation levels:

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I'm a big fan of Kurzgesagt – so much so that I can spell it correctly about 50% of the time without checking If you're not aware of them I also recommend the more in-depth "video essays" of Isaac Arthur's Science & Futurism channel concerning, well, science and futurism, which goes into a lot of things like deep time civilisations, alien contact, mega-engineering, etc etc etc. They're also available as audio-only podcasts I believe.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm a big fan of Kurzgesagt – so much so that I can spell it correctly about 50% of the time without checking If you're not aware of them I also recommend the more in-depth "video essays" of Isaac Arthur's Science & Futurism channel concerning, well, science and futurism, which goes into a lot of things like deep time civilisations, alien contact, mega-engineering, etc etc etc. They're also available as audio-only podcasts I believe.

Nice resource. Thanks!

 

[Deks]

My apologies and to clarify, it was Dr. Hirai who classified Species 10C as Type 2 on the Kardashev scale and maybe higher (with their implied mastery of the Omega particle, plus power projection and matter manipulation that rivals V'Ger's, etc, so Type 3 in my book).

I get the impression Species 10C are a very prehistoric race of colonisers who migrated from the Andromeda Galaxy alongside the Kelvans. They have some vague similarities to Iain M. Banks' Dwellers (functionally immortal, super advanced jeovian gas dwellers), with a visual look inspired by the Reaper's creators.



Star Trek is a pulp middle brow TV and movie franchise made within a production budget to entertain people, so their depiction of pan galactic socities is not relatively realistic like in Stephen Baxter, Arther C. Clarke, and Alastair Reynolds novels.

Dyson spheres/swarms, Ringworlds, and Halos are all just about within the techological and industrial means of the Borg, UFP, Dominion, and Romulans, but is that practical and necessary for their needs? Especially when Romulan ships use singularities as a power source, warp cores being universal, and you have the "red matter" produced by the Federation under Spock's watch, etc.

Plus Earth like planetoids are very plentiful and, though a flawed prototype, you had the Genesis Device miraculously forge a Earth like world out of a nebula.

A more realistic Species 10C would be 4D dark matter cube or sphere like constructs living on the skeins of supernova, etc, but that would perhaps be too boring and confusing to look at on television screens.

Here's an interesting YT vid on civilisation levels:

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The UFP was definitely able to make Dyson Swarms since the 22nd century. WE had the technology to make it in reall life for crying out loud since 1990.
The UFP would have to have the same ability at least.
The fact they hadn't speaks more about writer imagination (or lack thereof) than anything else.
If anything the UFP is NOT allowed to make significant advancements if you noticed. Nothing of consequence actually changed in the 800 years since VOY returned (despite all technology which was encountered and brought back) - apart from programmable matter (which is more fitting for a few decades worth of advancement... if that).

A shell/sphere was never suggested by Dyson so its a moot point... at least Disco did depict Dyson Rings (which ARE a thing) for 10c... so that was realistic of sorts.

But I think that by the 32nd century, majority of UFP space would have had Dyson Swarms easily around every star in UFP space (or most of them) and local Dwarf galaxies (indicating a status close to Type III by the number of stars they have swarms around) whereas 10-C could have been portrayed as a Type III to 3.2 civilization (based on the fact they were mining for Boronite ore which could be used to synthesize Omega Molecules).

Also, the UFP not making Dyson Swarms wouldn't be about the abundance of energy. We know the ENT-D warp core was rated at around 12.7 exawatts... which is about 30 million times LESS than what our sun is rated for in total power output.
So, no, there is really no comparison. Dilithium and M/AM could never hope to match the energy output of a G-Type Star.. unless SF had 30 million ships... and we know they hadn't... the topped out probably at just over 80 000 ships in the late 24th century when they made their own USS Dauntless)... that's a far cry from 30 million.
And sure, while Warp cores would improve in power output in 800 years (or at least you'd think), we weren't given an indication a single Warp core is anywhere close to a star power output.

And from what we could gather, SF couldn't really hope to build 30 million Warp cores just to rival a power output of a single star.
In all reality, it would have been FAR easier (and much more efficient) to just make a Dyson Swarm using Mercury (or the asteroid belt) for raw materials that would make the Swarm itself (not a shell/sphere)... which UFP could do in months probably (we would take a decade or 2... possibly 30 years tops given the fact we don't have replicators, transporters or impulse drives).

Plus, we've seen that UFP was researching new energy sources in 23rd and 24th centuries.
Having something like a Dyson Swarm around every member planet star would have been perfect for UFP in late 24th century.... and by the 32nd this would expand to over 350 member planet star systems... and possibly other stars in UFP space... and some nearby Dwarf Galaxies).

Its just sad the writers never allowed UFP to advance as it should have.

 

[Sci]

The UFP was definitely able to make Dyson Swarms since the 22nd century. WE had the technology to make it in reall life for crying out loud since 1990.

That is a very extraordinary claim. Could you back that up?

 

[cooleddie74]

The Kelvin Timeline could construct outposts like Yorktown Station by 2263 but even that elaborate environment wouldn't qualify as Dyson-level technology. I sincerely doubt the 22nd century Federation or the 23rd century Kelvin Timeline Federation could make Dyson Swarms.

 

[Deks]

The Kelvin Timeline could construct outposts like Yorktown Station by 2263 but even that elaborate environment wouldn't qualify as Dyson-level technology. I sincerely doubt the 22nd century Federation or the 23rd century Kelvin Timeline Federation could make Dyson Swarms.

That is a very extraordinary claim. Could you back that up?

You should both watch this:

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It would also help for you to learn that something like this was already doable to construct back in 1975:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/sp...could-actually-build-a-space-colony-17268252/

And btw, I already posted these a long time ago... its amazing that I have to keep re-posting this stuff.

Oh and just to add some goodies...
We had molecular manufacturing since 2015 and Atomic scale manufacturing since 2018:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150312142901.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523104300.htm

And now for the rest:

There's a big difference between a Dyson Swarm (what Freeman Dyson originally proposed) and a shell/sphere (what someone else proposed as a scifi concept which Dyson himself dismissed as proverbial nonsense).

A Dyson swarm is nothing more than a collection of space based mirrors or solar collectors... each of which would be approximately 10km in diameter.
It was suggested we could have assembled one such massive collector on Earth in about 10 years, after which, we'd launch it in pieces along with automated self-replicating bots into space and have them go disassemble Mercury so they can make more solar collectors and/or mirrors from that raw material.

Mercury is the best option because it has small mass and no atmosphere (which would make it easy for the bots to approach and leave it), and its loss wouldn't affect our Solar system from a gravity point of view, and it was projected it would taken us about 70 odd years to break down Mercury like that entirely... so already in about 10 - 20 odd years we would have had a partial Swarm complete.

However, what the people didn't fully take into account was the fact that since technology continuously evolve, methods of production and construction would change over time as well... therefore, those self-replicating bots would upgrade themselves over time, upgrading their own production methods as well which would progressively REDUCE the amount of time that's needed to complete the Swarm (you can't just assume one method of construction would be used for all eternity... that's nonsense).

Since Starfleet was already building massive starbases in space by the 23rd century (multiple km in size)... it stands to reason if they can make those, then building something like simple mirrors or arrays of solar collectors which are pretty simple in terms of design and overall function would be a piece of cake in comparison (especially when compared to something like Starbase 1 or Yorktown Starbase which are FAR more complex in form and function).

So, we're not talking about creating something as collosaslly stupid as a shell/sphere... but rather a Swarm of collectors... which would take far less resources and time to construct and would provide the same benefit (capturing the entire or most of energy output of a star).

Plus, a Dyson Swarm is actually a simpler construct (in terms of technology and function) compared to say a full blown starship (and Earth was building those since first contact with the Vulcans it seems... or at least in 50 years after they eradicated war, poverty and disease at least... so early 22nd century at most).

And also, Dyson's idea sugested the swarm could be made of space based orbital habitats (like the ones NASA tasked the students to devise using the science and technology since 1975).

So, to say we had the ability to start creating a Dyson Swarm since 1990 was an elaborate overshoot because we could have already built orbital habitats in 1975 with 3 times lower cost than the USA annual military budget (and solar panels being used in space existed back then - and even space based solar power was proposed further alone as a concept in 1980-ies).

Why is this so difficult for people to understand and least of all imagine that UFP could have in fact been doing the same thing since it was founded and that individual planets could have done that BEFORE its founding?

Earth had Warp drive for crying out loud since 2063... it stands to reason their technology and science were well up to the task fo making something as 'simple' as a Dyson Swarm.

This is a forum for Trekkies... I would have thought people would have been familiar with things like these.

 

[fireproof78]

This is a forum for Trekkies... I would have thought people would have been familiar with things like these.

Um, no. IDIC applies to Trekkies too.

 

[cooleddie74]

That's not in-universe evidence that the Federation does it in the 22nd century.

 

[fireproof78]

That's not in-universe evidence that the Federation does it in the 22nd century.

No, but the ongoing debate is how poorly done science is in Star Trek. Especially since technology "should" (emphasis on should) grow exponentially with no possible hiccups or damages in futurist projections.

 

[cooleddie74]

By this logic we should have replicators by the time of TOS. I mean, transporter technology used to create food and drink out of thin air so you don't need more bulky and problem-prone food synthesizers or lots of food stores in cargo bays. No holodecks in Kirk's time?

You'd think any society that could build Dyson Swarms in the 22nd century would have food replicators and holodecks by the late 23rd century.

 

[Deks]

Um, no. IDIC applies to Trekkies too.

Either way, its disappointing to say the least.

 

[fireproof78]

By this logic we should have replicators by the time of TOS. I mean, transporter technology used to create food and drink out of thin air so you don't need more bulky and problem-prone food synthesizers or lots of food stores in cargo bays. No holodecks in Kirk's time?

You'd think any society that could build Dyson Swarms in the 22nd century would have food replicators and holodecks by the late 23rd century.

Yes, that is the expectation. Which is why Star Trek is a failure. Of science.

Also, not to be that fan, but the rec room was kind of a holodeck in Kirk's time Plus the weird aliens who impregnated Trip on ENT had holodecks and even the Klingons were impressed. "I can see my house from here."

 

[Deks]

By this logic we should have replicators by the time of TOS. I mean, transporter technology used to create food and drink out of thin air so you don't need more bulky and problem-prone food synthesizers or lots of food stores in cargo bays. No holodecks in Kirk's time?

You'd think any society that could build Dyson Swarms in the 22nd century would have food replicators and holodecks by the late 23rd century.

Pretty much actually... or much sooner if you think about it (I'd actually posit we will get replicator like technology in this century in fact)... the Trek writers didn't think about exponential developments and returns for one thing... and I suspect some hadn't even studied what was possible already for us to construct in real life decades ago... least of all what we're doing right now.

At best, some have used aspects of what's currently in practical use (which is a FAR cry from our FULL technical and scientific potential btw), not what's been said was possible but never actually done because it was deemed 'cost prohibitive' or because socio-economic conditions (or the socioe-economic system we have) are keeping us rooted in outdated ways of thinking and methodologies.

In case you didn't know, we have already ran an experiment for the purpose of converting energy (photons) into matter (same type of thing the 24th century replicators were said to do - conversion of energy into matter)... a very small scale experiment, but it seemed to have worked.
The experiment was originally conducted in 2018 if I'm not mistaken at the university of London.

 

[fireproof78]

Either way, its disappointing to say the least.

Why? I am a mental health counselor by training. Do you expect me to keep up on all the latest and greatest tech developments? That's unreasonable at best when I am training and researching other more preferred treatment options, and best practices for clients.

I have passing familiarity with Dyson Sphere/swarms, but it's basic at best. And expecting all Trekkies to have the same baseline knowledge is setting up for disappointment. Guess we succeeded there.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yes, that is the expectation. Which is why Star Trek is a failure. Of science.

Also, not to be that fan, but the rec room was kind of a holodeck in Kirk's time Plus the weird aliens who impregnated Trip on ENT had holodecks and even the Klingons were impressed. "I can see my house from here."

In my head canon the Xyrillians were the inventors of holodeck technology in our part of the galaxy. They later joined the Federation which is why we have holodecks by the 24th century.

 

[fireproof78]

In my head canon the Xyrillians were the inventors of holodeck technology in our part of the galaxy. They later joined the Federation which is why we have holodecks by the 24th century.

Makes as good of sense as any. Though they probably initially tested it our as rec rooms

 

[Deks]

Why? I am a mental health counselor by training. Do you expect me to keep up on all the latest and greatest tech developments? That's unreasonable at best when I am training and researching other more preferred treatment options, and best practices for clients.

I have passing familiarity with Dyson Sphere/swarms, but it's basic at best. And expecting all Trekkies to have the same baseline knowledge is setting up for disappointment. Guess we succeeded there.

No, of course I don't expect all Trekkies to know of this... but at the very least, given their interest in Trek, one would have thought that some would have more interest in things like this an knowledge base than not... like I said.. its disappointing to see that (at least it is to me).