Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x05 - "Die Trying"

[Agony_Boothb]

I thought the Admiral trying to break the crew up the way he did was absolutely stupid and kinda took me out of the episode for a bit, it seemed there just go give Burnham a chance to start acting up again and really bothered me. Remember Scotty in friggin Relics? That was only a few decades out of time and he was completely lost when it came to the tech. Even Picard didn't like using holotech on the ship in Picard. How the hell are they gonna be reassigned effectively?

When Vance said 'reassigned', I took it to mean that he would have the discovery crew maintaining the 32nd century roomba's that vacuum Federation HQ or locked in a padded holodeck somewhere. Either way I doubt Vance would be assigning a bunch of ancient starfleet officers to the Voyager-J or the Constitution.

Edited to add: I think Vance was testing Saru and Burnham to see how they reacted. He's still not convinced at this point that that the crew of Discovery aren't from some hostile temporal war faction

 

[NCC-73515]

Did Rachael Ancheril leave the show for good (excluding future cameos)? Seems like she was just made a series regular billing-wise this season.

She'll be back in a surprise saving-the-day appearance in the massive battle at the end of the season XD

"Coming up next on CBS All Access...the 6 hour documentary series continues of The Federation History and Discovery's reception of 930 years of history."

I would so watch that - make it a Long Trek!

Admiral Vance appears (so far) to be human and we've been told Earth is very much not a member of the 38 Federation worlds anymore.

They could have massive holo-versions of Earth cities and parks for people to live in, which would also explain why Earth has multiple definitions in Daniels' time...

If they're establishing that Terrans are the way they are due to some evil gene or something, I wouldn't be surprised if they literally deactivated that in Mirror Georgiou. Maybe that's why she was looking confused at the end.

That woule be a very interesting story: Should society 'fix' criminals against their will by altering their biology?

In Deep Space 9, it was established that the Terran Empire became enlightened after Mirror, Mirror, which led to its downfall. The fact it became enlightened suggests any evil nature is not written in stone, or their genes.

The rebellion in ENT was led by Andorians, IIRC, and Spock's reforms probably also relied on non-humans.

I'd love to see a Xindi-Reptillian walking around in the 32nd century and as a member of Starfleet. We already know the Xindi were Federation members by the 26th century and the Reptillians were probably the most dangerous species among the Xindi during ENT.

Or even better: An insectoid or an aquatic!

But I know enough about the military to know that rotation is not just common, but considered to be an absolutely necessary part of maintaining the chain of command.

"We're not a military organization" - Scotty, referring to the end of the MACOs when the Federation was founded

I can understand why the crew wouldn't be keen on being split up. That said, it's absolutely something they should have every expectation of happening, given I have to presume it's the norm in Starfleet for people to serve only a handful of years on a given assignment before being rotated elsewhere. They should not be taken aback.

"Everyone has to rotate after 3 years, so y'all have to catch up and rotate 300 times now! Better get started!" XD

 

[jackoverfull]

She'll be back in a surprise saving-the-day appearance in the massive battle at the end of the season XD

very likely

 

[RedAlert]

Well... what a surprise to see the Voyager-J !!!
It's a timeless name.

And I love the disfunctional team!!!
There could be an entire comedy show about them.
There are here the smiles that the show needs.

No more to say... I still have to process all the new-federation thing.
B-story ... meh.

And David Cronenberg baby!!!
It would be nice to have another famous guest trekkie fans cameos.
Admiral Stiller is calling!

 

[Phily B]

When Vance said 'reassigned', I took it to mean that he would have the discovery crew maintaining the 32nd century roomba's that vacuum Federation HQ or locked in a padded holodeck somewhere. Either way I doubt Vance would be assigning a bunch of ancient starfleet officers to the Voyager-J or the Constitution.

Edited to add: I think Vance was testing Saru and Burnham to see how they reacted. He's still not convinced at this point that that the crew of Discovery aren't from some hostile temporal war faction

I hope he is a lot more competent than he appeared to be in his first appearance.

 

[plynch]

So on Fridays I then watch the Mandalorian. I haven't liked a new media property/thing since Breaking Bad, I think. Love it.

Whereas . . .

I tolerate DSC. Try to like it. And I try to process why I don't.

It's so . . . now. And I don't like now.

E.g., crew's outrage/surprise at not being kept together and keeping the USS Disc. And the outrage we're supposed to feel too.

"Now" says, whatever I want, that's the way it's supposed to be! We'll steal a dossier and take a ship and do what I want and prove I'm right! (I thought Burnham learning not to be so arrogant was the main lesson of the past two seasons.)

Older ethos: there's a way, and a chain of command, do your duty.

E.g. #2: "Now" says feelz and emotionalism at all turns. Cry, cry cry. Audience, FEEL now. The last ep where Burnham does the tear-eyes look for Nahn whom she only knew briefly; then not for a year - man, I thought they were moving past this. It's why I didn't get that worked up over the trill love story flashbacks previous ep, the scenes were SO manufactured to get us to FEEL NOW . . . I subsequently felt manipulated. As opposed to, say the last part of TOS "This Side of Paradise" where Leila says goodbye to Spock. It's understated and heartwrenching. Yes, I'm cherry-picking. Or compare Kirk's face when Edith gets killed in City on the Edge. Again, no bawling. But we hurt with him.

Rant over. If you like this show, I'm envious. With Michigan football as it is, if it weren't for Mando, I'da thrown the TV (which we keep stashed behind a chair anyway) in Lake Michigan.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

She'll be back in a surprise saving-the-day appearance in the massive battle at the end of the season XD

Exactly what I thought. DIS love a last ride of the Rohirrim scene

 

[eschaton]

Everything we've seen over fifty years suggests the opposite. Not just the hero ships either - Picard was on the Stargazer for years. Starfleet seem to like stability and long assignments. O'Brien served on, what, three assignments that we know of over nearly thirty years?

Yes, Trek repeatedly comes up with bullshit excuses why crew rotation is infrequent (and basically absent among main characters).

We know from an off-show perspective the reason for this is the cast is the cast, and they're not going to show realistic crew rotation when actors have contracts and messing with the casting can alienate fans. It's analogous to how M.A.S.H. ignored the Korean War's actual length, and ran for more years than the war was fought. Or how shows based in high school - if they remain popular - find some excuse to have all of the characters stay at home and commute to a nearby college rather than realistically splitting the gang up.

I'd also note that typically speaking there was special pleading (like the torturous ways the TOS crew was reunited, or Riker's "lack of ambition") which was used to explain why crew rotation didn't happen. Sometimes it worked better than others (Worf appearing in Nemesis back on the Enterprise, totally ruining his character arc from DS9), but there was usually some explanation, which led us to believe that more frequent rotations were happening on the "lower decks"

If they just had some bullshit, throwaway line about how the crew had to stay together due to not wanting their "backwards ways" corrupting uptime Starfleet officers, I would have been fine with it, TBH. It was just the "OMG, no!" reaction that got to me.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

The crew wanting to stay together is completely understandable.

Crying about wanting to find Starfleet and then saying FU to orders and doing whatever you want after finding them is not

 

[Oso Blanco]

Cry, cry cry. Audience, FEEL now. The last ep where Burnham does the tear-eyes look for Nahn whom she only knew briefly; then not for a year - man, I thought they were moving past this. It's why I didn't get that worked up over the trill love story flashbacks previous ep, the scenes were SO manufactured to get us to FEEL NOW . . . I subsequently felt manipulated. As opposed to, say the last part of TOS "This Side of Paradise" where Leila says goodbye to Spock. It's understated and heartwrenching. Yes, I'm cherry-picking. Or compare Kirk's face when Edith gets killed in City on the Edge. Again, no bawling. But we hurt with him.

Exactly. It's all too forced and obvious to make me feel emotional about the characters. Especially teary-eyed Burnham is causing the exact opposite. The writers/producers wanted to show us a strong woman in command, and this is what we got. They should have taken a note from Captain Janeway!

 

[1001001]

I do have to say, the outrage onscreen - and the outrage we were supposed to feel - when it was suggested that the Discovery crew be broken up and assigned to different ships was just...weird.

I mean, I'm not someone with military experience. But I know enough about the military to know that rotation is not just common, but considered to be an absolutely necessary part of maintaining the chain of command. Servicemembers left with one another for too long will begin to feel the ties of mutual solidarity can outweigh the orders given. It also makes corruption in the ranks much more likely to happen (which is why the military, unlike the police, doesn't have to worry about malfeasance by one individual being covered up by others).

Basically, the most self-evident thing for Starfleet to do would be to break up the crew. I realize the needs of the story require that not happen, but the reaction of the crew should not have been "OMG No!"

Given the collective trauma the crew has been through, including abandoning all their family and friends to stay together and save the universe, I'm going to give them a break on this one....

 

[RAMA]

Discovery is Number 3 in the world today on Netflix.

 

[fireproof78]

Given the collective trauma the crew has been through, including abandoning all their family and friends to stay together and save the universe, I'm going to give them a break on this one....

Same here. Treating the crew like they should just fall in line is extremely insensitive and ignoring their obvious struggles.

But, that's just me. I really feeling for this crew.

 

[Noname Given]

I'm thinking the glasses wearing man (Kovich) debriefing Georgiou is the modern day version of Star Fleet Security / Section 31. His debrief might have included some mind control on Phillipa to make her an unwitting agent of his on Discovery.

He's supposedly an expert on MU Terrans. Like Georgiou was an expert on deactivating holograms; he may be an expert on manipulating MU Terrans. He's definitely whatever passes for section 31 in the 32nd century. The issue I have with all his knowledge is if there hasn't been "crossover" in over 500 years, where is he getting all his working knowledge from?

Still is a fan I'm glad they're giving Michelle Yeoh more to do; and giving her character an arc in this season's story beyond just being a mustache twirling MU Terran that has a soft spot for Michael Burnham.

Exactly. It's all too forced and obvious to make me feel emotional about the characters. Especially teary-eyed Burnham is causing the exact opposite. The writers/producers wanted to show us a strong woman in command, and this is what we got. They should have taken a note from Captain Janeway!

Yeah sorry, no. I don't think making Michael Burnham a bipolar female character who from episode to episode can't decide whether to follow the prime directive this week, or to sacrifice the ship and crew and federation values for one crew member because she can't deal with the fact that someone dies due to her bad decisions.

In fact seeing that Voyager-J was there real low point because the the ship was hardly anything of note in itself.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I thought the Admiral trying to break the crew up the way he did was absolutely stupid and kinda took me out of the episode for a bit, it seemed there just go give Burnham a chance to start acting up again and really bothered me. Remember Scotty in friggin Relics? That was only a few decades out of time and he was completely lost when it came to the tech. Even Picard didn't like using holotech on the ship in Picard. How the hell are they gonna be reassigned effectively?

Pretty sure retraining was mentioned at least twice. So it's not like a crewman would go directly from the Disco to the Voyager-J without training.

 

[plynch]

Yeah sorry, no. I don't think making Michael Burnham a bipolar female character who from episode to episode can't decide whether to follow the prime directive this week

= Burnham

 

[Roald]

So on Fridays I then watch the Mandalorian. I haven't liked a new media property/thing since Breaking Bad, I think. Love it.

Whereas . . .

I tolerate DSC. Try to like it. And I try to process why I don't.

It's so . . . now. And I don't like now.

E.g., crew's outrage/surprise at not being kept together and keeping the USS Disc. And the outrage we're supposed to feel too.

"Now" says, whatever I want, that's the way it's supposed to be! We'll steal a dossier and take a ship and do what I want and prove I'm right! (I thought Burnham learning not to be so arrogant was the main lesson of the past two seasons.)

Older ethos: there's a way, and a chain of command, do your duty.

E.g. #2: "Now" says feelz and emotionalism at all turns. Cry, cry cry. Audience, FEEL now. The last ep where Burnham does the tear-eyes look for Nahn whom she only knew briefly; then not for a year - man, I thought they were moving past this. It's why I didn't get that worked up over the trill love story flashbacks previous ep, the scenes were SO manufactured to get us to FEEL NOW . . . I subsequently felt manipulated. As opposed to, say the last part of TOS "This Side of Paradise" where Leila says goodbye to Spock. It's understated and heartwrenching. Yes, I'm cherry-picking. Or compare Kirk's face when Edith gets killed in City on the Edge. Again, no bawling. But we hurt with him.

Rant over. If you like this show, I'm envious. With Michigan football as it is, if it weren't for Mando, I'da thrown the TV (which we keep stashed behind a chair anyway) in Lake Michigan.

I don't know through what negative, biased lens you watch DSC, but I watch DSC and Mando too, back to back on Fridays. I find DSC infinitely more rewarding than Mando. 5 minutes of DSC offer me more character, heart and soul than Mando has ever offered me. Visually, Mando can't be beat, and to create something as instantly iconic as The Child (AKA 'Baby Yoda') is ingenious, but beyond that, I find the lack of depth and character nuances not very inspiring.

 

[Char Kais]

Now that Terran behavior has a biological (medical) explanation, the writers have a backdoor to "heal" the Empress and make her a good person (for the Section 31 show?).

 

[Yistaan]

Now that Terran behavior has a biological (medical) explanation, the writers have a backdoor to "heal" the Empress and make her a good person (for the Section 31 show?).

This could get into some tricky ethical dilemmas though. Terrans are literally an alien race to humans. They are now confirmed to have different DNA (however slight the difference they are now established). If the Fed are going to "cure" Mirror Georgiou, they are basically holding heir own human DNA as the standard. What gives them that right?

By that reasoning, Mirror Georgiou can say it's in fact the humans who have a "weakness" gene and thus she needs to "cure" them. The Fed can move on to the Klingons and say they have an "aggression" gene and thus need to be cured. The Klingons will say Mirror Georgiou has it right and the humans have a "weakness" gene, etc.

Also, one thing I haven't mentioned is that this episode sort of whacks Spock's in-universe legacy again. Not only did he cover up what happened to his stepsister, he did not leave any time capsule or time delay message to the 32nd century saying "To the Federation of the 32nd century, from Ambassador Spock--My stepsister Michael Burnham and her crewmates on the USS Discovery are due to arrive at some point in this time. The reasoning for their classification in the 23rd century will now be obsolete. Here is what I know about them, their unique interstellar propulsion system, and what they will need, etc."

Spock is one of the most brilliant minds of the Federation. That he didn't use his later high status and his next 130 years of time with the Federation to even find some way to help Michael when she finally arrives doesn't speak well of him, as he's usually crazy-prepared in TOS and in the movies. Maybe the listed Unification III episode will alleviate this, but so far it doesn't look good for Spock.

 

[Timo]

Wasn't that "medical explanation" rather blatantly presented as bullshit, though? Akin to an interrogator telling her victim that, oh, and BTW, he has been diagnosed with incurable liver problems that will horridly kill him in about two weeks, so how about telling everything now?

it's not logical for Starfleet to have discovered this "explanation" within the lengthy time window during which there was zero contact with the Mirror realm. So there's no escaping that Georgiou is being told lies here: both the claims can't be true at the same time. And her catching the lie rather than mistaking the truth for one seems like something we could credit her with.

Timo Saloniemi