Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Nerys Myk]

The one in which the Guardian was singular(1) and uncooperative(2).

(1) there weren’t billions of them scattered all over local space.

(2) it didn’t help them travel to the exact points they wanted to go in the episode or in any other after.

2
It was cooperative. At no point did it say no or make things hard for our heroes.

SPOCK: I was recording images at the time McCoy left. A rather barbaric period in your American history. I believe I can approximate just when to jump. Perhaps within a month of the correct time. A week, if we're fortunate.
KIRK: Make sure we arrive before McCoy got there. It's vital we stop him before he does whatever it was that changed all history. Guardian, if we are successful
GUARDIAN: Then you will be returned. It will be as though none of you had gone.

and

KIRK: But this time, you were in Orion's past with us when the historians had the time vortex replay Vulcan history. You couldn't be in two places at once, so you died as a boy. Guardian! Did you hear that?
GUARDIAN: I hear all.
KIRK: Is it possible for Spock to return to Vulcan and repair the timeline that has been broken so all is the same as before?
GUARDIAN: It is possible if no other major factor is changed.
SPOCK: I do not remember everything. There is a vague memory from a child's point of view, but the details are not clear.
KIRK: You have to remember, for you and your mother to live.
SPOCK: Yes. I will need a Vulcan desert soft suit and boots, and a small selection of streetwear circa 8877 Vulcan years. The carry bag should be of the same period.
KIRK: You've got it. I'll order the wardrobe section to prepare it now.
THELIN: This change in the timeline will put you in my place, yet I am not aggrieved.
SPOCK: Andorians are not known for their charity.
THELIN: True. A warrior race has few sympathies, but one we do possess is for family. In your time plane, you will live and so will your mother. That is valuable. Live long and prosper in your world, Commander Spock.
SPOCK: And you in yours, Commander Thelin.
(The carry bag is beamed down)
KIRK: Nice to know the crew is efficient in this time plane, too. Spock.
SPOCK: I wish to visit the planet Vulcan, thirty years past, the month of Tasmeen. Location, near the city of ShirKahr.
GUARDIAN: The time and place are ready to receive you.

 

[oberth]

It still confuses to me as to why they would build their machine in New York, and not somewhere in Europe where the Nazi's would have had a more solidified control.

it needed to be sold to an american audience

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Reminds me of "Wheels and Legman" from American Dad!

 

[Gonzo]

Finally watched the show and gave it a 9/10.

I had no problems with it.

Nice big fight is being set up, would be nice if the Klingons show up as well.

Section 31 has been decimated, only Tyler and Georgiou remain now which sets things up nicely for the upcoming series.

Yet more evidence in this episode that shows the potential value of a Pike/Enterprise show ideally including the handover to Kirk at the end of the series.

Personally I would have blown the ship to kingdom come as soon as I knew I couldn't delete the data.

It's not that big a deal as it's only a ship, instead it looks like they throw it into the future which would achieve the same result.

Now the only question is what will happen to Pike at the end of the season finale, will he go back to the Enterprise as its repairs are complete, he did only sign on for one season just like Number One.

Interesting that we haven't heard anything about Spock's future, perhaps he will stay aboard Discovery for a while, as Commander alongside Burnham with Saru as Captain.

We still need to know who is behind the Red Anomalies, my money is still on the one common denominator that has been consistent across the episodes which is Burnham herself, the suit would work for her due to being related to it's creator.

Solid setup episode and ready for the big finale.

 

[Gov Kodos]

2
It was cooperative. At no point did it say no or make things hard for our heroes.

and

In fact, the Guardian seemed to be quite inviting.

SCOTT: What happened, sir? You only left a moment ago.
(McCoy returns.)
SPOCK: We were successful.
GUARDIAN: Time has resumed its shape. All is as it was before. Many such journeys are possible. Let me be your gateway.

 

[Saul]

Good episode. Nice pace again.

But time crystals.... Ever since they showed up in season 1 I had a feeling they would come back in season 2 and be the macguffin or time travel would be the arc of the season. It's just so unimaginative from the name which a 7 year old would be ashamed to come up with to the usage of them.

Interesting to see Pike's accident but disappointed they just used the Discovery sets for a J class starship. It was a really well done scene though even if I did prefer the version in the book 'Burning Dreams'. The 'Early Voyages' comics often hinted at Pike's future too. I always found it interesting that deep down Pike knows where he is going.

 

[Arpy]

2
It was cooperative. At no point did it say no or make things hard for our heroes.

and

It was mysterious, doing things in its own way. It didn’t send Kirk and Spock to the exact moment McCoy arrived in the past.

And it didn’t become the Federation’s Iconian gateway to defeat all subsequent threats.

 

[Arpy]

Star Trek is full of "greatest threats." It's a part of the show.

“Greatest threat” as in the entire universe should be falling apart, not greatest threat as in Borg. It’s greatest threat as in “anyone who uses warp speed even once changes the entire universe”-level threat.

I don't need help because Star Trek is full of fake tech and fantasy tech that doesn't bother me. I'm not going to pretend it's scientific in any way.

That’s your choice. But Trek’s claim to fame is that it was more scientific than what came before it, and it’s most interesting when it does good drama with a ring of scientific plausibility. That’s what sci-fi is, as opposed to Fantasy. Infinity gems are fantasy. Hell, even there, there’s, what, one of them? (Time gem). Time Crystals are countless, presumably found throughout the universe.

It really is.

No. Lots of things get dropped or retconned all the time.

(EDIT: corrected for incorrect autocorrect.)

 

[DaveyNY]

It still confuses to me as to why they would build their machine in New York, and not somewhere in Europe where the Nazi's would have had a more solidified control.

I kind of assumed that when they first arrived, the Aliens initial goal was to convince the Nazi leadership that they could be useful. Thus they helped Hitler conquer Europe and then invade America toward that end.

I also figured that the manufacturing infrastructure of Germany at the time, was probably not up to the exact standards that the Aliens needed to build their device, so the invasion of the USA, with it's vast resources and massive wartime infrastructure was also needed.
If I remember correctly, at the point in the story when Archer and crew arrived, the invasion had only achieved the partial goal of conquering the States, with just some of the East Coast being overrun and there being a very large resistance making headway against the invaders, thus slowing down their main objective of building the device.
NYC could have been the place chosen for their HQ as it was easily the least fortified and also the greatest example of a propaganda weapon against the rest of the country.
(being so easily taken over)

Also, there was a lot of super-secret stuff being designed at Colombia University which is in the heart of the city.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was mysterious, doing things in its own way. It didn’t send Kirk and Spock to the exact moment McCoy arrived in the past.

And it didn’t become the Federation’s Iconian gateway to defeat all subsequent threats.

They didn't ask to be sent to the exact moment.

SPOCK: I was recording images at the time McCoy left. A rather barbaric period in your American history. I believe I can approximate just when to jump. Perhaps within a month of the correct time. A week, if we're fortunate.
KIRK: Make sure we arrive before McCoy got there. It's vital we stop him before he does whatever it was that changed all history. Guardian, if we are successful

And again in Yesteryear

SPOCK: I wish to visit the planet Vulcan, thirty years past, the month of Tasmeen. Location, near the city of ShirKahr.
GUARDIAN: The time and place are ready to receive you.

Also the time crystals themselves don't seem to let you physically travel through time. The just show you visions of the future. (Not unlike the Guardian). Crystals in conjunction with technology (Mudd's gizmo, the Red Angel suit and I guess the spore drive) are what allows physical time travel. So again I suggest that the Guardian is a machine/being/neither powered by the crystal.

SPOCK: This single object is the source of all the time displacement.
KIRK: Explain.
SPOCK: I can't. For this to do what it does is impossible by any science I understand. It is operating even now. Putting out waves and waves of time displacement, which we picked up millions of miles away

GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.
KIRK: Are you machine or being?
GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.

 

[Cox of Seagulls]

Boy, Captain Pike sure is great.

 

[IMC Headquarters]

Kronos crystal -- powering Transmission of Michael Through Interstitial Time. TOMTIT.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Reminds me of "Wheels and Legman" from American Dad!

On a side note, I really wish nobody would ever again connect anything to do with Seth MacFarlane with Trek - under any circumstances. Ever. Again. Thank you.

 

[plynch]

Not that you care, but you've helped me know myself. 70s kid, NASA nerd, reader of Analog . . .

I prefer technobabble nonsense to fantasy nonsense.

Yup. And yes, I would take VOY over DSC generally. "We could configure a reverse ________ emitter; that might ________ the _________ and wrap up the plot in time." Smoky baritone voice: "Tom, B'Elanna, get on it." Aaaand . . . it works.

Not great. But better for this guy than magic time crystals. Your mileage varies, I know.

 

[Alan Roi]

This is something I vehemently disagree on. If the standards on any area for a new Star Trek series is the lowest point any previous series reached, then we really don't have standards. That something stupid happened in previous iterations is not a reason to repeat it. Indeed, one would hope that the past mistakes would be something one could learn from.

That sounds an awful lot like "continuity matters only if its continuity I approve of." And demanding that any new Star Trek must adhere to one arbitrary set of standards one declares is acceptable is a recipe for disappointment every single time. TOS took its brand of mock science a lot less seriously than TNG-ENT took their brands of mock science. But for the most part it was still mock science.

On the other hand TOS was likely the most inspirational of all the series. And we can all get a chuckle about how unintentionally silly it could be. That does not appear to be same with the Berman series so much in my experience.

I think there's a lesson in that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Not that you care, but you've helped me know myself. 70s kid, NASA nerd, reader of Analog . . .

I prefer technobabble nonsense to fantasy nonsense.

Yup. And yes, I would take VOY over DSC generally. "We could configure a reverse ________ emitter; that might ________ the _________ and wrap up the plot in time." Smoky baritone voice: "Tom, B'Elanna, get on it." Aaaand . . . it works.

Not great. But better for this guy than magic time crystals. Your mileage varies, I know.

So chronoton particles trapped in a crystal matrix is good?

 

[Alan Roi]

Not that you care, but you've helped me know myself. 70s kid, NASA nerd, reader of Analog . . .

I prefer technobabble nonsense to fantasy nonsense.

Yup. And yes, I would take VOY over DSC generally. "We could configure a reverse ________ emitter; that might ________ the _________ and wrap up the plot in time." Smoky baritone voice: "Tom, B'Elanna, get on it." Aaaand . . . it works.

Not great. But better for this guy than magic time crystals. Your mileage varies, I know.

What you describe is the very model of boilerplate writing. I can't imagine how that should be considered 'it works' in any genre of fiction.

 

[NewHeavensNewEarth]

That sounds an awful lot like "continuity matters only if its continuity I approve of." And demanding that any new Star Trek must adhere to one arbitrary set of standards one declares is acceptable is a recipe for disappointment every single time. TOS took its brand of mock science a lot less seriously than TNG-ENT took their brands of mock science. But for the most part it was still mock science.

On the other hand TOS was likely the most inspirational of all the series. And we can all get a chuckle about how unintentionally silly it could be. That does not appear to be same with the Berman series so much in my experience.

I think there's a lesson in that.

That's something I was addressing in another thread as being an almost comforting DSC-to-TOS form of continuity:
"Gotta say, I cringed the first several times they used that phrase 'time crystals,' but now I think it has kind of a 'retro' sound to it that works well with TOS lingo that was usually simpler in nature than the meaningless technobabble of later series (mainly VOY). Now I cringe and also smile when they say it."

 

[cooleddie74]

So chronoton particles trapped in a crystal matrix is good?

It is if you wanna impress nerd girls at San Diego Comic-Con.

 

[Alan Roi]

Time Crystals are countless, presumably found theology the universe.

No. Lots of things get dropped or retconned all the time.

Is that top line supposed to make sense, or a Freudian Auto-correct?

If lot of things get dropped or retconnect "all the time" then doing so is the standard not the exception.