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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

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I wish this forum had a way to filter out anyone theorizing about / hoping for / railing against a Borg origin story.

I'd mash the shit outta that button at this point.

For my money, I'm fine with either, as long as the execution of the plot is well done, and I'm happy to wait until the episode air dates to find that out. :bolian:

Anyway, just watched the episode, and boy, that was just wonderful from start to finish. I was getting a bit worried, based on the wobbly show last week.
 
Because these writers? All it takes is a couple lines of dialogue to turn Control into the Borg.
Let's put it this way. It wouldn't take Control!Borg very long to assimilate everything. It would be just that OP compared to the real Borg. There wouldn't be a TNG era, unless you wanted to watch a workplace drama, starring a whole bunch of drones, with one voice, arguing with itself.
 
Let's put it this way. It wouldn't take Control!Borg very long to assimilate everything. It would be just that OP compared to the real Borg. There wouldn't be a TNG era, unless you wanted to watch a workplace drama, starring a whole bunch of drones, with one voice, arguing with itself.

That actually sounds almost exactly like what the TNG era was.
 
Let's put it this way. It wouldn't take Control!Borg very long to assimilate everything. It would be just that OP compared to the real Borg. There wouldn't be a TNG era, unless you wanted to watch a workplace drama, starring a whole bunch of drones, with one voice, arguing with itself.

Control crashes and burns sometime in the past, merges with a human to survive. Tada! Borg.
 
How the hell is that supposed to work. Even if you posit that the brain can act as a transceiver of sorts, the signals are still going to be limited to the fastest allowed speed. In Trek, thanks to the existence of subspace, that's FTL. In the universe you just described, it's c. :shifty:

The would be one of the least implausible things about this series.

Telepathic communications may all be thru the mycelial network.
 
Telepathic communications may all be thru the mycelial network.
I wasn't talking about Trek (DSC or otherwise). In Trek, you can handwave it with <insert subspace technobabble here>. In the universe that poster described, there is no way to handwave FTL anything, since c is the fastest you can go. Which means there can't be FTL telepathy.
 
This episode had 2 amazing things and some meh.

Pike's sacrifice scene. I'm surprised they didn't just retcon it to a Section 31 cover story and do something different, but it was well done and harrowing. I loved Pike's Kelvin universe-inspired uniform (the cadets were in more colourful versions of the ST'09 Kobayshi Maru onesies) too.

The monastery on Boreath was a brilliant concept. So much potential for cool stories there! Awesome visuals with the trees growing too. And the Son of Voq was very cool.

The Section 31 ship stuff was by-the-numbers but not bad. I'm still not sure how an AI designed to protect lives needs to end all of them except because Skynet.
 
Let's put it this way. It wouldn't take Control!Borg very long to assimilate everything. It would be just that OP compared to the real Borg. There wouldn't be a TNG era, unless you wanted to watch a workplace drama, starring a whole bunch of drones, with one voice, arguing with itself.
Here, its easy.

"Sent hurtling through time into the distant past to a pre-industrial world deep in the Delta Quadrant by Burnham's actions, Control-Leland found itself heavily damaged and corrupted. As it lay dying, it was approached by a curious local woman, in a desperate attempt to survive Control infected her with its nanites. Unexpectedly the alien woman proved to be strong, too strong for Control to overwrite. Instead the woman, Control, and the remnants of Leland become one. The first Borg Queen."
 
I can see the 1960's chairs and tell they don't belong in the Discovery motif.

And I personally see no problem in trying to mix the aesthetics. And I can't make a judgment call until we see the whole set. But if you want to go there...

I don't care about the chairs. They're a minor thing. I RARELY pay attention to where the characters are sitting.

I really don't give a shit that they have a big window (or transparent aluminum viewport or whatever) with a HUD as opposed to a 75" flat panel TV (even if I actually do prefer the prior because it actually makes more sense to have an actual viewport out into space with data that can be put up there as opposed to a viewscreen that you have to turn on and off).

I care what the overall package looks like. And as for myself, I don't know what the whole bridge looks like. I don't know what it looks like together and I can't make a judgment call based on two seconds of footage at one angle.

But that could just be me.
 
* L'Rell and Ash have a sweet moment where they learn the name of their son, who is now a full grown adult on Boreth (due to the nature of the time crystals). It was well done, I think.
I thought it was cool that Kenneth Mitchell played the their grown son, after having already played Kol in Season 1 and Kol's father earlier this season. I guess he's DSC's go-to Klingon guy. :D

L'rell "How did you speak to our son."

Pike, hesitant "I couldn't even begin to explain."

I can fucking explain in less than ten words - 'he grew up faster and is an adult now'.
I did think that was a little odd. It was a fairly easy-to-understand explanation that Pike was given, so why not just repeat it back to L'Rell & Tyler.

Again, no Tilly.
Even if she was destined to have a minimal presence in this episode, that mess hall scene would have been the perfect place for her to make her only appearance. It was still a great scene without her though. :D
 
I forgot to mention in my other thread how much I loved the mess hall scene, it's great to see the show finally taking some to time to show the characters just hanging out and not in crisis mode. Reno and Linus's little word game was fun.
The scene with Reno and Hugh in sickbay was really nice too.
 
I'm watching it now and I have to ask why do they have to keep shaking the dam camera? Whenever there is a close up scene with important dialogue and you are trying to watch, someone just has to nudge the camera... Grrr.
 
Loved this episode. We finally got to see Pike's accident!

I must admit time crystals are a hokey concept that doesn't work for Star Trek but I still enjoyed the Boreth material.

I still think Control is the Borg.

No Tilly. Excellent.
 
The dry ice was a bit much, but I liked the song break.
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Why do they need to destroy Discovery?

Why not just spoor drive to Spacedock, have the computer core pulled, and phaser the thing.
 
Why do they need to destroy Discovery?
Why not just spoor drive to Spacedock, have the computer core pulled, and phaser the thing.

How about something a little simpler. Download the data into a backup drive (or drives) and phaser them? Someone on board has a big enough 'thumb drive' .... Right? ;)

Q2
 
Improvement from the last week, some great bits, some mediocre bits. Things still do not make sense.

Whilst I really don't like how blatantly magical nonsense the time crystals are (the fast ageing baby was particularly weird), the whole Boreth jaunt worked really well, and Pike's vision was harrowing. My SO who isn't so well versed in TOS was quite shocked. Though they instantly questioned why Pike couldn't have been rebuild as a cyborg like Airiam...

It is really weird how Jett Reno keeps appearing and disappearing. She was well used in this episode though, I liked it much more than her last appearance.

The Control fight was a bit unnecessary and really didn't add much. And my enjoyment of that whole aspect is greatly hindered by the sword of Damocles of the Borg origin story looming over it.

And indeed, why fight the S31 ships? They're all there, just sporejump fuck away. By all means, blow up the ship, I though that they should have done that in the last episode already. But they can jump into some safe planet and blow up Discovery without interference from S31. Introducing magic super tech is perilous, and it is really stupid that they forgot the capabilities of their own ship.
 
Very Johnny Got His Gun
Nice reference! Chilling, but nice.

The knowledge of predestination would seem to cause a person to make conscious changes to avoid that destiny. In First Lensman, we see how that might play out. Mentor predicts, or "visualizes" that Virgil Samms will have a run-in with a cat and a straight razor:
This forecast is, I trust, sufficiently detailed so that you will have no difficulty in checking its accuracy or its lack thereof?"

"Detailed! Accuracy!" Samms could scarcely think. "But listen—not that I want to cross you up deliberately, but I'll tell you now that a man doesn't like to get sliced by a barber, even such a little nick as that. I'll remember that address—and the cat—and I'll never go into the place!"

"Every event does affect the succession of events," Mentor acknowledged, equably enough. "Except for this interview, you would have been in New Orleans at that time, instead of in Spokane. I have considered every pertinent factor. You will be a busy man. Hence, while you will think of this matter frequently and seriously during the near future, you will have forgotten it in less than five years. You will remember it only at the touch of the astringent, whereupon you will give voice to certain self-derogatory and profane remarks."

"I ought to," Samms grinned; a not-too-pleasant grin. He had been appalled by the quality of mind able to do what Mentor had just done; he was now more than appalled by the Arisian's calm certainty that what he had foretold in such detail would in every detail come to pass. "If, after all this Spokane—let a tiger-striped kitten jump into my lap—let a left-handed Tony Carbonero nick me—uh-uh, Mentor, UH-UH! If I do, I'll deserve to be called everything I can think of!"

"These that I have mentioned, the gross occurrences, are problems only for inexperienced thinkers." Mentor paid no attention to Samms' determination never to enter that shop. "The real difficulties lie in the fine detail, such as the length, mass, and exact place and position of landing, upon apron or floor, of each of your hairs as it is severed. Many factors are involved. Other clients passing by—opening and shutting doors—air currents—sunshine—wind—pressure, temperature, humidity. The exact fashion in which the barber will flick his shears, which in turn depends upon many other factors—what he will have been doing previously, what he will have eaten and drunk, whether or not his home life will have been happy ... you little realize, youth, what a priceless opportunity this will be for me to check the accuracy of my visualization. I shall spend many periods upon the problem. I cannot attain perfect accuracy, of course. Ninety nine point nine nines percent, let us say ... or perhaps ten nines ... is all that I can reasonably expect...."
Another take on this is Heinlein's "Life-Line." I like that one mainly because it presages the end of insurance rackets.
 
I enjoyed the episode, though I think the whole time crystal narrative is dumb. So time is accelerated around the time crystals? In less than a year (relative to Ash and L'Rell), their child grows to be an adult (somewhere between 20-40 years of age).

I get that it's sacred to the Klingons, but wouldn't it make sense for them to setup some research labs and/or manufacturing facilities on that planet? For every year of technological development of their opponents (UFP, Romulans, etc...), the Klingons would advance 20 years or more. This is true of shipbuilding or even training warriors, providing the resources and people are available.

I loved seeing the D-7. The ship was wonderfully done. Anson Mount's Pike, as always, was great. They really should give him his own spinoff. The new Georgiou and Picard based shows may or may not be good, but I think Mount has already shown the show's producers and the audience that he is a solid lead character.
 
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