Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x09 - "Project Daedalus"

[Alan Roi]

Considering that mindripping Sloan ended the Dominion war (the Founders would have fought to the bitter end if they were not cured) and Spock's mission to Romulus ended in miserable failure to the point Nero blew up whole planets just to get revenge on him (there's an entire Vulcan population still dead in the Kelvin timeline)...

Yeah, ditching Romulus to help Bashir out would have been more logical.

Seeing that nobody involved can see the future. IMO, that's a fatuous argument.

 

[Alan Roi]

It isn't like Spock was roaming the halls and freaking out, he was in private with Burnham who seems to be able to get under his skin the way only siblings can...

Not to mention that at that point Spock was also doing his level best to act the younger brother and turn it around on her as well.

 

[Yistaan]

Seeing that nobody involved can see the future. IMO, that's a fatuous argument.

Even if Spock didn't know Romulus would be destroyed, it's clear his presence on Romulus for over 20 years garnered absolutely no goodwill or understanding from Nero and his followers' part. It's hard to say how well reunification is progressing when the representative of the party to be reunited with is the first to blame when something goes wrong.

If Worf was immediately blamed for things in Starfleet (failing to save Picard from Borg abduction and thus failing to prevent the massacre at Wolf 359), for example, one can assume Klingon Federation relations probably aren't going as well as one would hope.

 

[fireproof78]

Considering that mindripping Sloan ended the Dominion war (the Founders would have fought to the bitter end if they were not cured) and Spock's mission to Romulus ended in miserable failure to the point Nero blew up whole planets just to get revenge on him (there's an entire Vulcan population still dead in the Kelvin timeline)...

Yeah, ditching Romulus to help Bashir out would have been more logical.

First of all, there's a lot of assumptions in this post. One, we have no idea how Spock's reunification process was going, or how the Dominion War impacted it. The fact that Romulus was destroyed doesn't tell us that one way or the other.

Secondly, Spock was blamed by Nero because Spock promised he could save them. It's not like Nero kind of knew of Spock-he knew Spock well enough to know the man promised to save Romulus. I have heard stories of humans who have flown off the handle for feeling lied to.

Finally, and most importantly, Spock already did the whole mind rip thing in TUC and it left him visibly shaken and disturbed. It was highly controversial for Spock to probe so deep, and was likened to rape. You will be hard pressed to tell me that Spock could be convinced that such an act would be acceptable again.

 

[The Vast Loneliness]

This is my first post. I was motivated to create an account to voice my thoughts on Airiam. Ever since season 1, I was intrigued by her character and really hoped the producers would develop her into a main character. She is the show's Data or at least could have been.

Why did they never develop her and then finally decide to cram one episode with all of her backstory and then kill her off?

Of all the recurring characters on the show that get no more than 1 line per episode, she was by far the most expensive character for the costume and makeup department to produce. It probably took 3-4 hours in makeup and costume to get her ready for each episode. All so she could say 1 line. Saru must take as long or longer, but he is a main character. If the show was looking for a way to cut costs, killing off Airiam was an easy cost savings move. My guess is the producers were looking for a way to shave a few dollars off production and took a hard look at all the characters. They decided they were never going to make Airiam a main character and that the cost to produce the character was just not worth it.

What bothers me, is she is the coolest looking character and could've been an amazing main character with her back story and her abilities. Instead they kill her off when we finally learn a little about here and we are left with Tilly, Stamets and Tyler who are not nearly as interesting. Basically, they killed off the best "could've been" character. So frustrating.

 

[Yistaan]

Secondly, Spock was blamed by Nero because Spock promised he could save them. It's not like Nero kind of knew of Spock-he knew Spock well enough to know the man promised to save Romulus. I have heard stories of humans who have flown off the handle for feeling lied to.

That's rather out of character. Spock usually says something like, "There is a 92.1% chance I will be able to defeat this supernova before it reaches Romulus."

I guess he really slipped up in his old age. He did say he promised in the 2009 film, so I guess it's canon, but it's a really silly thing to do. Notably in the non-canon Countdown comic, Spock makes no such promise, and Nero is instead angry that Spock didn't steal the red matter from the Vulcan Science Academy for their use.

EDIT: Even more interestingly, in the Nero comic book Nero outright says that Spock might not be able to save Romulus and begs his wife to join him on the Narada, but she refuses (saying she doesn't want to give birth on a mining ship or something like that). Ironically this makes her death her own fault.

 

[Alan Roi]

This is my first post. I was motivated to create an account to voice my thoughts on Airiam. Ever since season 1, I was intrigued by her character and really hoped the producers would develop her into a main character. She is the show's Data or at least could have been.

Why did they never develop her and then finally decide to cram one episode with all of her backstory and then kill her off?

Of all the recurring characters on the show that get no more than 1 line per episode, she was by far the most expensive character for the costume and makeup department to produce. It probably took 3-4 hours in makeup and costume to get her ready for each episode. All so she could say 1 line. Saru must take as long or longer, but he is a main character. If the show was looking for a way to cut costs, killing off Airiam was an easy cost savings move. My guess is the producers were looking for a way to shave a few dollars off production and took a hard look at all the characters. They decided they were never going to make Airiam a main character and that the cost to produce the character was just not worth it.

What bothers me, is she is the coolest looking character and could've been an amazing main character with her back story and her abilities. Instead they kill her off when we finally learn a little about here and we are left with Tilly, Stamets and Tyler who are not nearly as interesting. Basically, they killed off the best "could've been" character. So frustrating.

The episodes cost 8 million each on average. I doubt killing her off will save more than a few thousand dollars per episode. As for Data, he and similar characters are more than a crutch to story telling than anything else IMO. On the other hand, there do appear to be plenty of people who want to explore this kind of character. I don't think, however, that has ever been the kind of series Discovery has ever aimed to be or a crutch the showrunners want to rely on.

 

[oberth]

This is my first post. I was motivated to create an account to voice my thoughts on Airiam. Ever since season 1, I was intrigued by her character and really hoped the producers would develop her into a main character. She is the show's Data or at least could have been.

Why did they never develop her and then finally decide to cram one episode with all of her backstory and then kill her off?

Of all the recurring characters on the show that get no more than 1 line per episode, she was by far the most expensive character for the costume and makeup department to produce. It probably took 3-4 hours in makeup and costume to get her ready for each episode. All so she could say 1 line. Saru must take as long or longer, but he is a main character. If the show was looking for a way to cut costs, killing off Airiam was an easy cost savings move. My guess is the producers were looking for a way to shave a few dollars off production and took a hard look at all the characters. They decided they were never going to make Airiam a main character and that the cost to produce the character was just not worth it.

What bothers me, is she is the coolest looking character and could've been an amazing main character with her back story and her abilities. Instead they kill her off when we finally learn a little about here and we are left with Tilly, Stamets and Tyler who are not nearly as interesting. Basically, they killed off the best "could've been" character. So frustrating.

but it's that special stuff that makes the way they killed her off possible in the first place - the authors can't do that with a normal human, can they? she probably got the 'best death' (in an ancient roman sense - they graved a good death) anybody in trek ever had. she will now live on forever.

 

[The Vast Loneliness]

The episodes cost 8 million each on average. I doubt killing her off will save more than a few thousand dollars per episode. As for Data, he and similar characters are more than a crutch to story telling than anything else IMO. On the other hand, there do appear to be plenty of people who want to explore this kind of character. I don't think, however, that has ever been the kind of series Discovery has ever aimed to be or a crutch the showrunners want to rely on.

Alan, thanks for replying to a 'newbie' :-) Sure there are lots of crutches, Dr. Who's sonic screwdriver comes to mind or K-9 if you like old Dr. Who. I think what made Airiam special was that she was human and cyborg. That dynamic is sorely missing in Sci-fi shows. I can't think of a TV show that had or has a character like Airiam. Hopefully they bring her back and give her more of a role but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[The Vast Loneliness]

but it's that special stuff that makes the way they killed her off possible in the first place - the authors can't do that with a normal human, can they? she probably got the 'best death' (in an ancient roman sense - they graved a good death) anybody in trek ever had. she will now live on forever.

Oberth. Thanks for replying. I totally get where you are coming from. She did get a great death, but she was worth more (to me anyway) alive and one of the main characters. No offense to anyone that loves all the main characters, but the ship is getting rather crowded now with Spock on board. Lots of main characters and not enough time to give them all the attention they deserve. Someone had to go I guess and Airiam's number was the one called. Anyway ultra bummed.

 

[oberth]

Oberth. Thanks for replying. I totally get where you are coming from. She did get a great death, but she was worth more (to me anyway) alive and one of the main characters. No offense to anyone that loves all the main characters, but the ship is getting rather crowded now with Spock on board. Lots of main characters and not enough time to give them all the attention they deserve. Someone had to go I guess and Airiam's number was the one called. Anyway ultra bummed.

not all bridge characters are main cast (airam was among those who aren't) - for a relatively regular (super)extra that was a great death

 

[Alan Roi]

Alan, thanks for replying to a 'newbie' :-) Sure there are lots of crutches, Dr. Who's sonic screwdriver comes to mind or K-9 if you like old Dr. Who. I think what made Airiam special was that she was human and cyborg. That dynamic is sorely missing in Sci-fi shows. I can't think of a TV show that had or has a character like Airiam. Hopefully they bring her back and give her more of a role but I'm not holding my breath.

7 of 9? Cyborg and Robotman in Doom Patrol? Steve Austin & Jamie Sommers? Kiera Cameron from Continuum? I will admit, not a lot, but they are out there. Likely to me more in the future.

 

[fireproof78]

That's rather out of character. Spock usually says something like, "There is a 92.1% chance I will be able to defeat this supernova before it reaches Romulus."

I guess he really slipped up in his old age. He did say he promised in the 2009 film, so I guess it's canon, but it's a really silly thing to do. Notably in the non-canon Countdown comic, Spock makes no such promise, and Nero is instead angry that Spock didn't steal the red matter from the Vulcan Science Academy for their use.

EDIT: Even more interestingly, in the Nero comic book Nero outright says that Spock might not be able to save Romulus and begs his wife to join him on the Narada, but she refuses (saying she doesn't want to give birth on a mining ship or something like that). Ironically this makes her death her own fault.

No, it sounds like a man passionate and dedicated to his cause and he made a mistake, a mistake he owned. It doesn't sound out of character at all, especially in light of his "cowboy diplomacy" (As Picard put it) in "Unification."

In other words, it sounds completely in character for a man who is working to control and balance logic and intense emotions. Even Sarek could admit when his logic was faulty at times. Spock is no different, and not infallible.

Given the huge array of experiences Spock has had this comes as little to no surprise to me.

 

[The Vast Loneliness]

7 of 9? Cyborg and Robotman in Doom Patrol? Steve Austin & Jamie Sommers? Kiera Cameron from Continuum? I will admit, not a lot, but they are out there. Likely to me more in the future.

Thanks Alan. I forgot about 7 of 9. Never heard of Robotman in Doom Patrol....will have to check it out.

 

[oberth]

Thanks Alan. I forgot about 7 of 9. Never heard of Robotman in Doom Patrol....will have to check it out.

what is doom patrol?

 

[Alan Roi]

what is doom patrol?

TV series on DC Universe based on the comic that began in the 60s. Very weird.

 

[The Vast Loneliness]

TV series on DC Universe based on the comic that began in the 60s. Very weird.

Thanks, will have to check it out. Weird is good.

 

[DaveyNY]

Thanks, will have to check it out. Weird is good.

I saw the first episode.
It is very weird, but was pretty good (IMO)


BTW: Welcome to the forums.

 

[Vger23]

It's in character for a human, not Spock. He wouldn't do this unless there was some mind control or something. In Amok Time, him throwing the Plomeek soup was a sign that something was very wrong, as Spock wouldn't do that even if he was just upset.

Throwing the plomeek soup suddenly loses it's meaning if Spock tosses chessboards every time something goes wrong (which in the life of a Starfleet officer is very often).

Somehow we've forgotten about

Spock backhanding Kirk in The Naked Time
...beating the shit out of Kirk in This Side of Paradise
...killing Kirk in Amok Time
...attacking McCoy in All Our Yesterdays
...slapping the Phaser out of Valeris's hand

We can certainly say it's unusual for Spock to be violent or snap angrily, but it isn't "out of character." In fact, it's very much in character.

 

[The Vast Loneliness]

I saw the first episode.
It is very weird, but was pretty good (IMO)


BTW: Welcome to the forums.

Thanks DaveyNY. I'm thrilled to be here