Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x07 - "Light and Shadows"

[eschaton]

What show have you been watching the last 50 years? Most of the main cast of the franchise have been exceptional human beings, superior aliens, cyborgs and androids with the odd genetically enhanced hybrids or chosen of alien gods thrown in for good measre. The only people who are 'regular joes' are some people they meet and some of their subordinates, the vast majority of whom have been wet blankets by and large by comparison. Star Trek isn't 'average joes' in space and never has been. They are a group of people that are humanish, but are still able to save the galaxy every other week if needs be. Not even The Orville is that mundane, even if the crew can be pretty dumb at times to appeal to their audience and due to the limitations of Seth's abilty to write. The only scifi space show of note that even qualifies under that banner is maybe Red Dwarf, IMHO.

A lot of Trek characters were ordinary people. I'd argue everyone on TOS was other than Spock. On TNG, only Data and Worf were really extra special. On DS9 O'Brien was of course the everyman, but Kira, Jake, Quark, and many of the other characters were really just ordinary folks. VOY really only had The Doctor, Seven, and Kes as her "powers" started to develop. ENT was just a bunch of random, very ordinary folks.

One of the major appeals of the Trekverse - something that sets it apart - is that Starfleet is ultimately a meritocratic organization that anyone can join, if they work hard and study. I mean, it's obvious that all of the cast know more than we do. They're probably 2 standard deviations or more above average in terms of intelligence (since even boy genius Wesley had an issue getting in initially). But fundamentally they're mostly just people, not heroes with unique backstories. You can see this in how bad fanfic is written. People frequently fantasize about inserting themselves into the Trekverse. This stands in contrast to superhero stuff (or Star Wars) where the characters are literally of a different type than us - selected for greatness due to fate - and people tend to idolize the characters more than just relate to them.

 

[fireproof78]

I would argue that Kirk leaned more towards ubermensch than everyman.

 

[Ensign Mas]

One of the best episodes of DIS yet. I'm not sure about Spock yet, and there were a few hiccups, but I really enjoyed this episode. 9/10.

 

[eschaton]

So, Dr. Bashir, the genetically enhanced super intellect (outed in DS9 S5), must have really dragged down DS9's popularity among Star Trek fandom over the years since...oh, wait...

Alexander Siddig certainly wasn't a fan of the twist.

Honestly, I'm not sure how it helped the series in any way. Did we really need the "Jack Pack?"

 

[Hythlodeus]

A lot of Trek characters were ordinary people.

The very same Star Trek very everyone is the best in their field ever or the first of their kind to achieve something? I mean, even Jake supposedly was a phenomenal writer.

 

[eschaton]

I would argue that Kirk leaned more towards ubermensch than everyman.

Kirk being a larger-than-life heroic character really only happened with the TOS movies. Certainly he saved the day a great deal in TOS, but there's really no sense that he's a captain of any renown in the show. For all we know there are dozens, if not hundreds, of captains out there who are just as much of a badass in their own particular way.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Certainly he saved the day a great deal in TOS

about 78 times, give or take

 

[eschaton]

about 78 times, give or take

If saving the day is all that it takes to be a comic-book like character, than Nancy Drew is a superhero as well.

 

[Hythlodeus]

If saving the day is all that it takes to be a comic-book like character, than Nancy Drew is a superhero as well.

Probably? She never made the jump to the German speaking countries, so I'm only vaguely familiar with her and not enough to give an informed response. Maybe try a less obscure character for that analogy

 

[Nyotarules]

I'd have liked to see some more cracks in the monoculture -

The only species with a diverse culture are humans, all other aliens live in one small town on their planet, hence why they only have one language and religious belief (world building is not a Star Trek forte)

The most likely answer is Section 31 knew the attack was going to happen but didn't stop it for "the greater good."

I bet Prime Admiral Marcus is in charge and he wanted his war and got it

I've never understood why some Star Trek fans revere Vulcans. They're largely dicks. Spock mostly became less of a dick by maturing and embracing his human side, especially through the movies. But he has his moments. Then when we see other prominent Vulcans, more often than not, dicks.

Vulcan logic is practised by its followers on the same level as real life Human Christianity

I've never understood why some Star Trek fans revere Vulcans. They're largely dicks. Spock mostly became less of a dick by maturing and embracing his human side, especially through the movies. But he has his moments. Then when we see other prominent Vulcans, more often than not, dicks.

I wish there were more variety in Vulcan behaviour by the writers, yes Sarek is a dick, V'Las was a dick, the whole Vulcan state was a dick, T'Pau is a dick, T'Pol learns not to be a dick. The writers never showed much varied attitudes with this fictional race of beings, imagine the writers showing every human character to be just like.....Admiral Human dickhead.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I mean, even Jake supposedly was a phenomenal writer.

We saw Jake told that a lot... by people who already liked him.

 

[XCV330]

The only species with a diverse culture are humans, all other aliens live in one small town on their planet, hence why they only have one language and religious belief (world building is not a Star Trek forte)

I bet Prime Admiral Marcus is in charge and he wanted his war and got it


Vulcan logic is practised by its followers on the same level as real life Human Christianity


I wish there were more variety in Vulcan behaviour by the writers, yes Sarek is a dick, V'Las was a dick, the whole Vulcan state was a dick, T'Pau is a dick, T'Pol learns not to be a dick. The writers never showed much varied attitudes with this fictional race of beings, imagine the writers showing every human character to be just like.....Admiral Human dickhead.

Sovall seemed more of a prick than he turned out to actually be. I don't think T'Pol was. The treatment she got from Archer and Trip early on was pretty lousy. Saavik seemed alright, both iterations. Tuvok was just constantly annoyed, but in that regard I think he was a surrogate for anyone who had to watch VOY.

 

[Tim Thomason]

Well that was entertaining.

It always is.

Hmm. Kirk only ever had one celebrity to his crew - the Ambassador's Son. And even that guy kept his candle under a pretty airtight bushel. Nothing exceptional about the rest. Or their equipment, or anything. It really was the antithesis of "space is cool!", a show about the bluecollars of space exploitation dealing with the absurd as if it were mundane.

Pretty much. Pike is apparently one of the most decorated Captains in Starfleet, putting him in the celebrity camp kinda makes his replacement Kirk likely more celebrated than he seems. 100 years on, they're all celebrities (or at least the top few), although I've speculated that was because of the events of Star Trek IV and a romanticization of their "historic 5-year mission" in some media form.

McCoy was a medical innovator as early as the early 2250s, in his 20s, according to Voyager. So he's downplaying his potential celebrity by the time he works on the Enterprise.

Sisko commanded a station of misfits. No superheroes there, either, by any species' standards. Quite to the contrary, really.

As mentioned, Bashir was certainly a celebrity in certain circles in the later years, due to his genetically engineered superiority. That makes him literally a superhero by today's standards (like a super-smart Captain America), but he uses his powers for medicinal good.

And Sisko is like Jesus, or something. Pretty big deal on Bajor.

Rom becomes a reformist Grand Nagus, so Nog and Quark are celebrities by default. Nog also being explicitly the first Ferengi in Starfleet probably made front-page news somewhere.

Curzon Dax is a celebrity to the Trill, Federation, and Klingons, and his successors most likely feel some of this. Worf is a kingmaker, a few times over. He probably has Oscar-winning movies about his life (I know, you mentioned him).

Since DS9 ends the bloodiest war in Federation history, they're all celebrities, of course, but that just means we're watching the transformation.

So would it be Archer who worked with exceptional human beings? Which ones?

Archer's crew might be the dullest. I mean, they all have interesting backstories, but I can only think that maybe Hoshi, as an amazing translator and eventual inventor of linguacode might qualify as a celebrity. And Archer, of course, due to nepotism that he molded to his favor into becoming one of the greatest Starfleet officers in history.

Mayweather, Reed, even Tucker as a martyr don't really seem to be best of the best when we meet them, nor do I think they are well-known 200 years later outside of Archer's shadow, based on what we see on the show.

Maybe Tucker's famous for that pregnancy.

 

[USS Triumphant]

I wish there were more variety in Vulcan behaviour by the writers, yes Sarek is a dick, V'Las was a dick, the whole Vulcan state was a dick, T'Pau is a dick, T'Pol learns not to be a dick. The writers never showed much varied attitudes with this fictional race of beings, imagine the writers showing every human character to be just like.....Admiral Human dickhead.

I have come to believe that most Vulcans just aren't very good at the disciplines they are taught, and use feeling irritated about things as a crutch to keep more extreme emotions in check instead. But there *are* exceptions. Saavik. Verrik. Selar. Vorik. Sybok, Soval. And older, TOS T'Pau doesn't seem like a irritable dick anymore, so much as someone determined to maintain ways and order.

 

[eschaton]

Probably? She never made the jump to the German speaking countries, so I'm only vaguely familiar with her and not enough to give an informed response. Maybe try a less obscure character for that analogy

Okay. Is Shaggy from Scooby Doo a superhero?

 

[cooleddie74]

T'Pol was just a typical Vulcan who'd spent a lot of time around humans during the development of the NX Project. They saw us as impulsive, hyperemotional adolescents who wanted to play with the adults of the galaxy and own one of the big toys that those adults had, and they weren't necessarily wrong. Archer's bitterness over how the Vulcans held back his father's warp engine research was well-founded because the Vulcans were too obnoxious and condescending in their actual policies they pushed on human scientists and bureaucrats but he allowed it to turn into open prejudice and some of the same rude behavior that the Vulcans were guilty of.

It's easy to side with Archer in the first couple of episodes of the series but you soon realize that mankind wasn't going to succeed in deep space without relying on the advice and help of other species and his behavior - while understandable on a base emotional level - wasn't going to help Starfleet nor Earth in-general take its first permanent foothold as a galactic power.

 

[fireproof78]

Kirk being a larger-than-life heroic character really only happened with the TOS movies. Certainly he saved the day a great deal in TOS, but there's really no sense that he's a captain of any renown in the show. For all we know there are dozens, if not hundreds, of captains out there who are just as much of a badass in their own particular way.

He was still a larger than life hero even in TOS, as he often had the solution, balancing the extremes of Spock and McCoy with his own brand of wisdom. He was insightful and flawed, and self-aware, so he demonstrated many qualities that are to be admired rather than being possessed by the audience. As I said, he "leans" toward ubermensch, meaning that he is to be admired and aspired, rather than just identified with.

 

[oberth]

I wish there were more variety in Vulcan behaviour by the writers, yes Sarek is a dick, V'Las was a dick, the whole Vulcan state was a dick, T'Pau is a dick, T'Pol learns not to be a dick. The writers never showed much varied attitudes with this fictional race of beings, imagine the writers showing every human character to be just like.....Admiral Human dickhead.

how about soval? pretented to be a dick or 50 years?

 

[Nyotarules]

T'Pol was just a typical Vulcan who'd spent a lot of time around humans during the development of the NX Project. They saw us as impulsive, hyperemotional adolescents who wanted to play with the adults of the galaxy and own one of the big toys that those adults had, and they weren't necessarily wrong. Archer's bitterness over how the Vulcans held back his father's warp engine research was well-founded because the Vulcans were too obnoxious and condescending in their actual policies they pushed on human scientists and bureaucrats but he allowed it to turn into open prejudice and some of the same rude behavior that the Vulcans were guilty of.

It's easy to side with Archer in the first couple of episodes of the series but you soon realize that mankind wasn't going to succeed in deep space without relying on the advice and help of other species and his behavior - while understandable on a base emotional level - wasn't going to help Starfleet nor Earth in-general take its first permanent foothold as a galactic power.

I agree, Archer's behaviour was terrible. If I was the Vulcan government, having read Earth history books I would have blown up the Henry Archer engine and kept Earth back for 2 centuries lol
Proving you can play nice with each other for less than 100 years after trying to blow each other up, means nothing to a species that lives for over 200 years.

 

[eschaton]

He was still a larger than life hero even in TOS, as he often had the solution, balancing the extremes of Spock and McCoy with his own brand of wisdom. He was insightful and flawed, and self-aware, so he demonstrated many qualities that are to be admired rather than being possessed by the audience. As I said, he "leans" toward ubermensch, meaning that he is to be admired and aspired, rather than just identified with.

I still think there's a difference here between how superheroes tend to be portrayed and Kirk. One significant element of it is Kirk's personal backstory ultimately isn't that important. The important thing is what Kirk does, not who he is.