If starfleet wipes/classifies all information about them, and it isn't taught in school, then I could easily believe that very few people know about them.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x05 - "Saints of Imperfection"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Sure. But it is known. Military officers would know. I can find information about it in seconds.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Yet much of what we have now is built upon it.
Its no accident that history always repeats itself, wars occur because a delicate balance is disrupted, sometimes its a persons death that acts as the final trigger as we saw with the death of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the need for raw materials and belief in their own superiority as we saw in Japan with the rise of the military, or a belief that the previous war was not resolved conclusively such as we saw with Hitler in WW2 and the Gulf War 2 with Saddam Hussein, there are of course other reasons beyond those but this is not the place to list them.
Although in reality its probable that the wars above were inevitable and it was just a matter of why and when they would start, Neville Chamberlain was a good man but he wasn't the right man, he thought he had convinced Hitler but all he really did was fool himself.
Hope vs Plan.
I think you already know you're preaching to the choir. But, yeah, I didn't say that Pike's like Picard. And it's exactly as you say, Pike will violate regulations if he thinks his cause is just. He'll do what he does because he thinks it's right. Whereas I don't think Leland particularly cares about what's "just" and will do what he does because he thinks that's the best way to reach a goal or get closer to whatever the endgame is.
Leland probably thinks, "What do we need to do to get this done? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Great, sounds good. They'll never see it coming and no one will ever know."
Pike is more like, "What do we need to do to get this done? Wait. What? No. I won't do that. Because we can still do this without doing that. I have another idea. Here's what we'll do... "
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That's Star Trek Captain 101.
True. And Section 31 isn't the CIA. It's more like a black ops division in the CIA.
It would require the Federation to use some sort of Big Brother style revisionist history approach, which is not a pretty picture, and I really still don't find it plausible that it would work.
An heretical thought: Maybe Kirk was backed by Section 31. It would explain why he was able to violate the Prime Directive so often and ended up as Admiral after his five year mission... 
Was she? I thought that Dax was a gymnast or something.
Well she dated Bones when Bones was young. I think she then became Tobin who was the pilot and this was during the TOS days. Granted I am going off a comic book on that because I saw one were we see him and he is wearing the TOS style uniform. PLus of Jadzia going all ga ga at seeing the old TOS stuff in "Trials and Triblulations."
Jason
Jason
G
Gonzo
Guest
That was a great episode, really well thought out.
institutional memory isn't awlays that good, even about interesting things like intelligence organizations. Interest may flare up but it dies down and if an agency doesn't want itself advertised it won't be, i.e Black Chamber and the thing it grew into. The NRO existed for 32 years before it's existence was declassified. The pinkertons were once America's intelligence agency and now mostly thought of as private guards and historically, at best, as strike breakers. These are just public examples. It's not hard to imagine agencies flaring to life a little only to be officially lost in bureaucratic shuffles and reorganizations only to go "dark" and continue operations.
IF Sec.31 was disbanded/went black or just somehow was not supposed to be around anymore, certainly there would have been people who would have remembered it from a historical point of view, but for whatever reason Bashir, who liked to play James Bond type spy holo programs, never new about it. That's the odd bit, I suppose. Maybe he just skipped that part of historical interest. Sec. 31 might have always been secret to just a few. There were a lot of people who knew about NRO in the 70's and 80's as well but they weren't going to talk about it because A: They took oaths and kept them, and B, jail.
A
Amaris
Guest
Yet they came back.That statement completely discounts everyone who comes back both physically and/or emotionally changed.
It may be a Truism but it isn't really True.
She dated Bones in the 2245. The next host was Audrid, Tobin was before Emony. Most place him around the time of Enterprise. He was an engineer, with no mention of military service.
This one gets an 8 from me.
The stuff in the Mycelia Network was pretty good. Once May started talking about a monster, I was pretty sure it was going to be Culber, so that wasn't much of a surprise. It was a nice way to bring him back, and it will be interesting to see what's like now that he's back. I can't see him just coming back completely normal after going through something like that.
The visuals in the Mycelia Network are always cool, and I liked all of the stuff with the ship stuck half in and out of the network.
Seeing the Section 31 people is always fun, and the fact that Pike knew Leland was a surprise. The way the show is approaching Section 31 is the only thing that is really bugging me. So far pretty much time we've seen them before this they've been a big secret that nobody knew about but the people involved, but here they seem to be common knowledge and everyone is very casual. I definitely think they are up to something when it comes to their interest in Spock and the Red Angel. Seeing Cornwell with them was a surprise. I'm very curious what the Tachyon radiation in the signals means.
It's nice to get Tyler back on the ship, his return should lead to some interesting conflicts. I could definitely see a big test of his loyalty coming up if Section 31 is up to no good and it puts Burnham in danger. I wonder how Culber will react when he has his first run in with the guy who killed him?
So apparently Nahn is the new Chief of Security.
The stuff in the Mycelia Network was pretty good. Once May started talking about a monster, I was pretty sure it was going to be Culber, so that wasn't much of a surprise. It was a nice way to bring him back, and it will be interesting to see what's like now that he's back. I can't see him just coming back completely normal after going through something like that.
The visuals in the Mycelia Network are always cool, and I liked all of the stuff with the ship stuck half in and out of the network.
Seeing the Section 31 people is always fun, and the fact that Pike knew Leland was a surprise. The way the show is approaching Section 31 is the only thing that is really bugging me. So far pretty much time we've seen them before this they've been a big secret that nobody knew about but the people involved, but here they seem to be common knowledge and everyone is very casual. I definitely think they are up to something when it comes to their interest in Spock and the Red Angel. Seeing Cornwell with them was a surprise. I'm very curious what the Tachyon radiation in the signals means.
It's nice to get Tyler back on the ship, his return should lead to some interesting conflicts. I could definitely see a big test of his loyalty coming up if Section 31 is up to no good and it puts Burnham in danger. I wonder how Culber will react when he has his first run in with the guy who killed him?
So apparently Nahn is the new Chief of Security.
I would submit that having principles and values is more than "hoping for the best". If you don't apply your principles when things are difficult, you don't have them at all. Today we often compromise what we say we stand for when presented with a problem, and frankly it has a tendency to bite us on the arse. But even when it doesn't, it doesn't make it ok. Britain claims to be a liberal democracy which upholds the fundamental rights of humans, but has engaged in torture, illegal wars, illegal surveillance and restrictions, and now is looking at stripping radicalised, trafficked and raped children of citizenship out of fear. Star Trek has told us that humanity is capable of moving beyond our fears and holding principles which matter. This idea that war is a great teacher of hard lessons really needs to die out, and Star Trek has previously presented a society that has learnt that, as Kirk says, overcoming savagery is as simple and as complex as saying "I will not kill today".
You mean like how people in the military didn't know that Klingons had smooth heads during the TOS era? Like Picard, the societies in the 24th seems to prefer to pretend aspects of thier past are embarrassing and should be suppressed.
I think the idea is people need to principles but you also have to know that good intentions alone will not always make things better. Your principles are what keep you in check from going into a terrible person or government. Granted "Star Trek" at least with TNG is more about a dream where you can have it all. A paradise and no real compromises but I much prefer the idea of exploring a better future but one that still has modern imperfections in it.
Jason
Jason
This is Kirk
"[War] is instinctive. But the instinct can be fought. We're human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands! But we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers... but we're not going to kill today. That's all it takes! Knowing that we're not going to kill - today!"
This is Picard
"Oh, no. I know Hamlet. And what he might said with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man. How noble in reason. How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god."
"Surely you don't see your species as that?"
"I see us as one day becoming that. Is that what concerns you?"
Quite a shift for just 80 years, eh, considering it took a million savage ones to get to Kirk.
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