Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[waxon]

You mean like Jim Kirk (both in TOS and the Kelvinverse)? Most of the Kelvinverse Enterprise crew? Saavik and the Enterprise cadet crew in TWoK? Wesley Crusher? Nog? The cadet crew on the USS Valiant? What's to explain?

No I don't. The narrative gave us an explanation for the Kelvinverse crew, and why Jim Kirk was on the the ship. From what I recall Saavik was brought on the ship by Spock. Wesley Crusher was on the ship because it was a starship that carried families and his mother worked on the ship. I can't speak about the other ones I don't recall watching those episodes/films.

Maybe I'm not being clear I'm not talking about fan inferred theories, I'm talking about the show giving an explanation in the narrative for why Cadet Sylvia Tilly is on a front line war ship in the middle of the war.

If a cadet is so important what not make her a fully fledged member fo the crew? What is gained by making Tilly a cadet? But then it's like a lot of the shows narrative choices that I end up questioning. What is the point?

 

[Photoman15]

Because in the Prime Universe, Tilly is a cadet, but Lorca knows he needs her to be Captain Tilly when he gets to MU.

 

[lawman]

No I don't. The narrative gave us an explanation for the Kelvinverse crew, and why Jim Kirk was on the the ship...

Maybe I'm not being clear I'm not talking about fan inferred theories, I'm talking about the show giving an explanation in the narrative for why Cadet Sylvia Tilly is on a front line war ship in the middle of the war.

If a cadet is so important what not make her a fully fledged member fo the crew? What is gained by making Tilly a cadet? But then it's like a lot of the shows narrative choices that I end up questioning. What is the point?

On the one hand (from an in-universe point of view), it's well established in Trek that cadet upperclassmen at the Academy (aka "midshipmen"), at least those on a command track, take a cruise on an actual starship as part of their training. In that sense, given that Tilly's a cadet, there's nothing especially unusual about her being on the ship... although the "in the middle of a war" bit is perhaps out of the ordinary, as is the level of responsibility she's been entrusted with.

On the other hand (from a real world point of view), it is indeed somewhat perplexing that the show's creators chose to make Tilly a cadet in the first place. It doesn't seem to have any special significance to the plot, nor to her character development; they could just as easily have written her as a newly graduated ensign, and avoided all the kinds of questions you're asking.

On the other other hand (?), as DSC goes so far, this is very nearly the least of the questionable and arguably pointless narrative choices the show has made, so I'm not really going to let myself be troubled by it...

 

[matthunter]

Storywise as well, a cadet is likely still subordinate to a Specialist (Burnham's brevet rank). Though Tilly would likely still follow Burnham's suggestions just because of their mentor/student relationship.

If they'd made her a "fresh-from-the-Academy" Ensign or even a junior Lieutenant we'd still be getting all this bitching, though, so really her rank is moot.

 

[SJGardner]

Because in the Prime Universe, Tilly is a cadet, but Lorca knows he needs her to be Captain Tilly when he gets to MU.

Exactly. After seeing why Lorca enlisted Burnham, do we really nead an explicit confirmation that he had Tilly take her middie cruise on the Discovery for the same reason?

I never had to exert myself trying to find explanations for these gaps in the characters' backstories. I can only speak for myself, but my mind kind of just filled in the blanks by itself, mostly because the explanations were kind of obvious. I might have needed to wait for the reveal of Lorca's plans and origins to realize why she was on the ship in the first place but when it clicked into place it was more like a eureka moment for me than anything else.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

The narrative gave us an explanation for the Kelvinverse crew, and why Jim Kirk was on the the ship. From what I recall Saavik was brought on the ship by Spock. Wesley Crusher was on the ship because it was a starship that carried families and his mother worked on the ship. I can't speak about the other ones I don't recall watching those episodes/films.

No further explanation is needed beyond the fact that as mentioned before by SJGardner, she's an Academy upperclassman on a midshipman's cruise, which appears to be standard operating procedure in Starfleet, especially (but not exclusively) for cadets on a command track, which Tilly expressed an interest in and is training for with Burnham's assistance.

Maybe I'm not being clear I'm not talking about fan inferred theories, I'm talking about the show giving an explanation in the narrative for why Cadet Sylvia Tilly is on a front line war ship in the middle of the war.

Well, that's nice, because none of the examples I listed were a "fan theory." They were concrete examples from canon of cadets serving aboard starships, both in time of war or crisis and not, and with varying levels of expository dialogue regarding the reasons for their presence, from some to none at all. But that was before you moved the goalposts and decided none of those examples counted because... reasons.

If a cadet is so important what not make her a fully fledged member fo the crew? What is gained by making Tilly a cadet? But then it's like a lot of the shows narrative choices that I end up questioning. What is the point?

To give young people in the all important 18-25 year old demographic someone to relate to? To give Burnham a single counterpart on the crew who was an equal in terms of status and didn't outrank her? To recreate the dynamic of the TNG fan favorite episode "Lower Decks" by focusing on a young, raw crewmember fresh out of Academy classes? To follow the path of her career from inception to seasoned veteran? To show a nervous, unseasoned young cadet with zero field experience to act as an in-story surrogate for the equally inexperienced audience? Because Lorca needed Tilly for the MU (as mentioned above) and a cadet could be more malleable from a storytelling standpoint? Because the Discovery producers like Mary Weisman a lot and thought her look and personality and enthusiasm most befit the image of a fresh young bookwise cadet?

 

[eschaton]

Because in the Prime Universe, Tilly is a cadet, but Lorca knows he needs her to be Captain Tilly when he gets to MU.

The problem is this is a within canon explanation. We know Fuller didn't intend Lorca to be from the MU. Presumably at that time Tilly was already a character sketch. Hence the original inclusion of her on the ship had nothing to do with MU Lorca's needs.

 

[eschaton]

Also, Mary Wiseman is the same age as SMG - 32. She doesn't look particularly young for her age either. Maybe Tilly had a career change in her mid 20s and entered the academy late, but I think it would have been more plausible if she was an ensign or something. Hell, I often forget she's a cadet and accidently call her ensign Tilly.

 

[SJGardner]

The problem is this is a within canon explanation. We know Fuller didn't intend Lorca to be from the MU. Presumably at that time Tilly was already a character sketch. Hence the original inclusion of her on the ship had nothing to do with MU Lorca's needs.

I might be Watsonian to a fault, but as long as I find a character internally consistent in their personality, backstory, actions etc., I don't usually consider the intentions of the creators in forming my opinions on them.

Also, Mary Wiseman is the same age as SMG - 32. She doesn't look particularly young for her age either. Maybe Tilly had a career change in her mid 20s and entered the academy late, but I think it would have been more plausible if she was an ensign or something. Hell, I often forget she's a cadet and accidently call her ensign Tilly.

Granted, I was never any good at gauging the apparent ages of people but Tilly came off as someone in her early-to-mid twenties for me. I was actually surprised to learn Mary was 32, because I've found her quite convincing in playing someone in her 20s.

 

[cooleddie74]

Also, Mary Wiseman is the same age as SMG - 32. She doesn't look particularly young for her age either. Maybe Tilly had a career change in her mid 20s and entered the academy late, but I think it would have been more plausible if she was an ensign or something. Hell, I often forget she's a cadet and accidently call her ensign Tilly.

I actually think Mary Wiseman could pass for a 22-year-old. I see plenty of women her age who still look like they could be just old enough to legally drink or still be in college. It could just be the women I tend to see and run into but I don't think she looks that "old."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Be nice to Tilly or she will strangle you with her Hair of Doom.

In either universe.

 

[cooleddie74]

That would be Voq and Kol.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ ... that one took me awhile but I got it.

 

[jaime]

That would be Voq and Kol.

Take two Klingons into the shower?
I just sift and go.

L’Rell. Because I’m worth it.

 

[cooleddie74]

Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's Sporebelline™.

 

[ISS-Magnum]

I'm talking about the show giving an explanation in the narrative for why Cadet Sylvia Tilly is on a front line war ship in the middle of the war.

If a cadet is so important what not make her a fully fledged member fo the crew? What is gained by making Tilly a cadet? But then it's like a lot of the shows narrative choices that I end up questioning. What is the point?

No further explanation is needed beyond the fact that as mentioned before by SJGardner, she's an Academy upperclassman on a midshipman's cruise, which appears to be standard operating procedure in Starfleet

Furthermore, it's standard operating procedure in the real-world navies and armies. One of the few things DSC writers did right.

 

[eschaton]

To be clear, I'm not slamming Marie Wiseman's looks when I say she looks her age. There's nothing wrong with a woman looking like she's in her 30s. I'm in my 30s myself, and married to an older woman. I just find that - in general - the Hollywood convention of having young characters played by much older actors is stupid, and it's a shame Discovery is following this pattern.

As a little aside, it has been scientifically proven the gene which causes red hair also causes faster skin aging and earlier wrinkles (independent of the greater sun damage redheads get due to having pale skin). So if the show does have a five-year run, it's likely the gap between Tilly's supposed age and Wiseman's real age will become more evident.

 

[Vger23]

To be clear, I'm not slamming Marie Wiseman's looks when I say she looks her age. There's nothing wrong with a woman looking like she's in her 30s. I'm in my 30s myself, and married to an older woman. I just find that - in general - the Hollywood convention of having young characters played by much older actors is stupid, and it's a shame Discovery is following this pattern.

As a little aside, it has been scientifically proven the gene which causes red hair also causes faster skin aging and earlier wrinkles (independent of the greater sun damage redheads get due to having pale skin). So if the show does have a five-year run, it's likely the gap between Tilly's supposed age and Wiseman's real age will become more evident.

I actually think Mary Wiseman is one of the most attractive main cast members in the whole franchise. Yes, Blalock and Ryan are traditionally beautiful...but Mary is just awesome through-and-through. I like non-traditional looks in people though...so whatever!

 

[ISS-Magnum]

By the way, about Tilly/Killy. After a great start ("I'd cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots!!!"), I expected more threatening words and cool adventures. For example, they should have sent Tilly and Michael together to the Empress's flagship.

But no. Shame.

 

[XCV330]

By the way, about Tilly/Killy. After a great start ("I'd cut out your tongue and use it to lick my boots!!!"), I expected more threatening words and cool adventures. For example, they should have sent Tilly and Michael together to the Empress's flagship.

But no. Shame.

You never know, they may show MU Tilly aboard the MU Disco with a rotting piece of tongue on the end of a fondue fork, scrubbing a boot.