Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x13 - "What's Past Is Prologue"

[SolarisOne]

Yeah. I'm all for redemption arcs in fiction. But actions should still have moral weight and consequences. It's simply morally monstrous to let someone off the hook because they always had "goodness in their heart" or something

Should they trust her? Hell, no. Should they ever give her any position of authority? Hell, no. Should they keep her on a tight leash? Hell, yes. But, as of right now, they have zero standing to impose actual penalty for anything. She hasn't committed any crimes in their universe.

 

[XCV330]

Mirror Stamets was pretty clearly amoral - he was developing bioweapons after all, and he didn't care he was harming the network (although he probably didn't know he was killing it).

The problem with him however is he served too little of a narrative purpose after being introduced. From what Stamets saw in spore-land, it seemed to imply that he was some mastermind who was responsible for many of the actions this season - perhaps even actively working with Lorca. But on Sunday, we found out he's just a two-faced dweeb who reads off shield percentages and then gets vaporized.

Can't argue any of that, but there are some similarities. Both Stamets were probably scientists forced from their primary interest into serving the military. Neither of them liked Lorca, very much. (but Lorca could only cancel shore leave, not put you in an agonizer, in the prime universe) . I kept waiting for Mirror Stamets to have some secret escape ready to beam him out, but yes in the end, he was just a pawn and disposed of. Prime Universe came back with no time to mourn, focused on ending the problems his doppleganger caused.

 

[XCV330]

Should they trust her? Hell, no. Should they ever give her any position of authority? Hell, no. Should they keep her on a tight leash? Hell, yes. But, as of right now, they have zero standing to impose actual penalty for anything. She hasn't committed any crimes in their universe.

Why do I see her walking off with some folks wearing those black badges, at the end of the season.

 

[MacLeod]

I wonder if this was filmed around the time that Rapp came forward or was considering coming forward about being assaulted by Kevin Spacey. I can imagine dealing with something like that would impact ones performance no matter how good an actor they are.

Could it have been filmed around the same time as episode 3?

 

[Mr Awe]

I dunno if I first saw it here or elsewhere, but someone described last night's episode as "A MCU movie told in the Star Trek universe." I think that's a very fair description. If you think comic book action movies are awesome, you'll like it. If not, you won't.

I don't like comic book movies but I absolutely loved this episode! It was firing on all cylinders!

 

[Krandor]

I'm down with Burnham saving her, same as I'm down with Kirk trying to save Kruge. (Though I expect Burnham has done it for all the wrong reasons.) But I'm not down with the evil emperor becoming a starship captain or somesuch in our universe. There's no way she could ever be trusted, even if she's "reformed."

If you want to save her because you are good and don't want people to die then sure. However, the second you are back on your ship you call security and throw her in the brig.

 

[picardjean-luc]

Mirror Georgiou is far more entertaining than the old one. I hope she sticks around.

Agreed. Mirror Georgiou can hold her own in a hand-to-hand combat against Lorca (unlike Prime Georgiou, who was quickly stabbed and killed by the Klingon leader). This episode is also good in showing off Michelle Yeoh's martial arts skills (as shown in "Die Another Day" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" moviews).

Sadly she is just a "special guest star," not a regular cast member. That means one way or the other (killed off, transported back to MU, etc) her character's story arc will end when this season ends

 

[Tuskin38]

Or bonus solution: they helped the Klingons win the war.

Why the hell would they help the Klingons?

 

[Rahul]

Burnham certainly IS a kind of Mary Sue.
Despite her f*cking up big time in the pilot - what she did was always the right choice, she was just wrong about the specifics on how to proceed. Since then, she has been shown to be a master at... everything:

-Chemical/Physical science, hand-to-hand-combat, outsmarting everyone else, creature care, coming up with clever new plans on the spot, always taking the ethically correct choice... she's perfect. And everybody is always telling it her - Georgiou (both!), Lorca, Saru, ... everyone. Also, everyone is always falling for her to such a degree they're sacrificing their own plans just to 'get her' - both Tyler and Lorca get foiled by how awesome they think she is!

But you know who else has all those characteristics?
James T. Kirk.
Will Riker. Sisko. Janeway. Hell, even Archer at times.

Yes. Burnham is a Mary Sue. 100%, undeniable. But you know what? It's a Trek staple. The main character always is. The only difference seems to be that women (Janeway, Burnham) get critizised extra hard for it.
So far, it doesn't bother me. But if someone is put off by it, that is completely justifiable, because she is a Mary Sue. But by FAR not as much as the ultimate Trek hero: Kirk.

I think i may be a tiny bit in love with you right now.

Great post.

Awwww. Thank you!

 

[Nyotarules]

So is Picard a Mary Sue?

He's a badass warrior, he was the only freshman to win the academy marathon, he's a wine connoisseur, quotes Shakespeare at length, speaks Klingon, is a renowned diplomat, is an amateur archaeologist who manages to make the greatest discovery in galactic history in his spare time, was one of Starfleet's youngest captains, is headhunted to raise the earth's ocean floor, is the captain of the Federation flagship, is quite the ladykiller, plays domjot like a hustler, and survived assimilation by the Borg.

And all this with an artificial heart.

Nah he's just a righteous prick!

 

[Gonzo]

Just watched the latest episode and loved it.

Shame to see Lorca go but at the end of the day the focus is supposed to be on Burnham and that won't happen as long as he is around.

Seems Emperor Georgiou will be around for a while longer, curious to see what they will do with her.

Now we shall see just how far the Federation is willing to go to turn the tide, principles are all well and good when the sun is shining and all is right with the world.

It could all just be undone with time travel though which would be a shame.

 

[XCV330]

Nah he's just a righteous prick!

When you're as awesome as Picard you get to be righteous.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Why the hell would they help the Klingons?

Because why not?, at this point. They could hate the idea of the Federation so passionately that they'd help the Klingons wipe them out before trying to get back home. I mean, that whole universe is insane anyway.

Also, for the preview for next episode, it looks like MU Georgiou takes her place as Discovery's answer to Seven of Nine (for at least a few scenes) as liberated-bad-guy-who-doesn't-want-to-be-liberated-but-uses-her-bad-guy-tactics-to-help-the-good-guys since they seemed to have dropped the Seven-lite characterization that Michael had the first half of the season.

 

[SJGardner]

Because why not?, at this point. They could hate the idea of the Federation so passionately that they'd help the Klingons wipe them out before trying to get back home. I mean, that whole universe is insane anyway.

That would however require the Klingons actually accepting their help. I can imagine Killy trying to offer them her services only to promptly get blown up with her ship because to the Klingons it's simply another enemy vessel, or at most the very ship that somehow destroyed the Ship of the Dead with Kol on board. If they recognized them as the Discovery, they might have even opened fire without warning, just to reap the glory.

She could've helped them inadvertently, though, by perhaps blowing up an important base guarding a supply route, either because she was looking for information on how to get home or simply because their cover was blown (we don't even know whether they attempted to maintain a cover at this point).

 

[eschaton]

That would however require the Klingons actually accepting their help. I can imagine Killy trying to offer them her services only to promptly get blown up with her ship because to the Klingons it's simply another enemy vessel, or at most the very ship that somehow destroyed the Ship of the Dead with Kol on board. If they recognized them as the Discovery, they might have even opened fire without warning, just to reap the glory.

She could've helped them inadvertently, though, by perhaps blowing up an important base guarding a supply route, either because she was looking for information on how to get home or simply because their cover was blown (we don't even know whether they attempted to maintain a cover at this point).

Given all the threads they need to resolve in the next two episodes, I wouldn't be shocked if they held off on this till Season 2.

 

[Lonemagpie]

You cheered that she saved the female version of Adolf Hitler ????

More the female Genghis Khan, but, yeah, anything that gives us more Michelle Yeoh in the series is good.

 

[Lonemagpie]

Honestly, I have never thought of Georgiou's death as "the most dramatic event in her life," perhaps because the opening two-parter completely failed to sell me on any sense of emotional connection or even camaraderie between the two women. It's not like we're talking about Kirk and Spock here. I'd imagine the most dramatic events in Burnham's life (even picking from what little we've seen of it) would include her parents' death, the attack on her Learning Center, and Sarek's (seeming) rejection of her, no tot mention (as you note) her mutiny, before anything involving Georgiou.

Every situation is different, and the effects of stuff that happened to her as a child may play differently depending on upbringing- but as an adult, an individual circumstance can hit you all manner of different ways.

From experience: you do not have to be so intertwined with someone to get fucked up by getting them killed or failing to save them. Sometimes just being the right person in the wrong place and the wrong time is all it takes.

 

[Lonemagpie]

I wonder if Prime Lorca might yet make an appearance...

Since MU Lorca got to "our" universe the TOS way (transporter/ion storm mix) we can infer that Prime Lorca was at the same instant delivered to the MU and died in his place. Then again, most of his crew were still alive, and there's time travel and flashbacks as posibilities...

 

[Lonemagpie]

Agreed. Mirror Georgiou can hold her own in a hand-to-hand combat against Lorca (unlike Prime Georgiou, who was quickly stabbed and killed by the Klingon leader). This episode is also good in showing off Michelle Yeoh's martial arts skills (as shown in "Die Another Day" and "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" moviews).

Tomorrow Never Dies (she was supposed to cameo in Die Another Day, but was unavailable.)

 

[GeekUSACarl]

It's also possible that PU lorca wasn't on the table but that popularity has spurred them to bring him into season 2, it's also possible that was the plan all along, I find it hard to believe there is no more Jason Isaacs.

I think they will bring him back.