Heh...yeah, in the AftreTrek show, they took a poll if Lorca was really keeping the better interests of the Federation and Discovery at heart for that decision or if he was just stalling. Over 90% voted that he was stalling.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x06 - "Lethe"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
Heh...yeah, in the AftreTrek show, they took a poll if Lorca was really keeping the better interests of the Federation and Discovery at heart for that decision or if he was just stalling. Over 90% voted that he was stalling.
I may be proven embarrassingly wrong...but I don't think this is true.
I think Lorca's experience with the Admiral has started to drive him to some level of self-awareness, and he knows that if he once again circumvents policy (even if it is to rescue her) that it further puts the nail in his coffin because "ooops he did it again."
I think his interactions with her have been a wake-up call, and he's trying his best to heal and manage himself back. As to whether or not he CAN do that on his own...well...we'll have to see.
But I'm not yet in the camp of "Loraca's a bad guy" or "They're setting Lorca up to be evil / wrong / crazybad."
Not yet....
But...but...wouldn't that imply...
GASP!
CHARACTER GROWTH!?!?!
This CANNOT BE!
At least, some people around here are fairly convinced it can't be.
I honestly hope you're very right. I think we've been conditioned to believe that Lorca is Ahab enough to operate in his own self-interest. Showing the cracks in his tough-guy veneer to beg to keep his ship is likely thrown in there to make us believe he'd do anything to keep it. Asking for Starfleet's permission...to do anything...is quite out of character for him and is designed to reinforce that suspicion. Again, I hope you're right and the Good Captain has discovered a new skill of introspection.
It was the same chance when Lorca was rescued by Discovery. Recall Ash (if we believe him) said the Cruiser they were on was deep in Klingon territory - probably farther that a ship could get without being detected, Command wanted Lorca recovered because he had the most knowledge (of any Command officer in the Fleet) of the Spore Dive tech and how it actually operates, (Remember at the strategy meeting they told Lorca to reign in use of the drive - BUT, once capture the order to Saru was - "Go get him back by any means necessary, before they get any info out of him."
Even though she's an Admiral, I doubt Starfleet places the same level of value on her. I also believe Lorca (who studies war and his enemies) knew that conventional diplomacy will not work with Klingons (or at best it was very unlikely 'talking' was te Klingons prime motivation for this meeting); and if he could nudge his 'old friend' into taking Sarek's mission; she'd likely be captured/killed and his problem of possibly being relieved due to her relating aspects of her encounter (although in wartime I can't see sleeping with a subordinate would go over well with Command for EITHER officer and would make Command judge BOTH as having judgement issues - and would reflect worse on the Admiral than Lorca who Command already KNOWS is a loose cannon who does it his way.)
But bottom line - Lorca knew her well, and that helped him talk her into talking over the mission (or if he knew her personality would make her predisposed to WANT to take over said mission) DIDN'T try to talk her out of it (because he knows the Klingons better than she does) means:
- Yes, after her saying: "When I get back we'll talk about HOW you step down from starship command..."; Lorca wanted/needed her removed and knew if she took the mission that would most likely be the result.
- Once she was captured, Lorca knew he could use his dressing down (by both the Vulcan Admiral over subspace for deciding to rescue Sarek) AND the personal visit (remember she came on a Cruiser that rendezvoused with Discovery) to suddenly become a "good soldier' - tell Command what happened and let them decide if Discovery should go after the Admiral; and if it's "No." - so sad too bad for her.
But yeah, in the end, Lorca WAS knowingly maneuvering to get the best outcome for himself at this point and doesn't care what happens to her as long as he can keep his posting. He's not a good friend/nor do I think he has any real feelings for her (if he ever did). Every move he made with her in the episode was a calculated one by him to make sure he retains his position as Captain of Discovery.
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In general, I've been depressed at how much individual commentors - fans of the show even - want to either presume that the most generic, predictable ending to the series possible is in the cards (e.g., Lorca is the bad guy at the end, and Micheal Burnham fully redeems herself) or are positing silly sci-fi theories which take all the drama and character growth out of the show (Lorca as a Klingon, replacement of characters by mirror universe counterparts, etc). It's like they're rooting for the show to be dumb, instead of being written well enough to outsmart them.
If anyone cares, here's my late review of the show.
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2017/10/star-trek-discovery-episode-s106.html
STAR TREK: DISCOVERY is a show which is consistently improving the more it continues but it's also doing so by moving away from what made you unique. The pilot introduced the possibility of a Star Trek "war" show which showed the Klingons and Federation in roughly equal measure. It promised space battles and a new look at Klingon culture. Unfortunately, we got waylaid with the "Spore Drive" plotline that was less than satisfying.
The past two episodes, however, have been classic Trek with the "Captain kidnapped by aliens" and now "An ambassador needs to be rescued" mission. In short, Discovery is moving back to what made Star Trek great but that isn't necessarily something I fully support. I feel like it's pulling back from it's firm commitment to trying something new in order to do something safe--no matter how much I enjoy said safe option.
Ash Tyler and Michael Burnham have great chemistry.
The premise for this episode is Sarek (James Frain) is on a mission of peace to the Klingon Empire when his aide is discovered to be a "logic extremist" that amounts to the Vulcan ISIL. His aide blows himself up but Sarek survives, barely, due to getting his ship's interior shields up in time. Michael Burnham, due to being his adopted daughter, senses his distress and compels her captain to help find him. This is the final straw for Starfleet, however, because it compels Commodore Cornwell to investigate Lorca's recent decisions. Lorca attempts to rely on their past relationship as friends as well as lovers but it only exposes just how damaged his past actions have made him.
The most interesting plot for this episode is definitely the Sarek-Michael Burnham one. It is the first storyline which makes it necessary for Michael to be the previously-unknown sister of Star Trek's most iconic character (even exceeding Kirk). Sarek raised Michael to be the perfect Vulcan despite her being human and assumed that would be proof of how much potential humanity possesses. At least, that's my read on the character.
I like Frain's Sarek who is (ironically) human and flawed.
Instead, Sarek finds out for a supposedly logical race that old habits like prejudice die hard. He's given an impossible choice by the Vulcan Expeditionary Force (which I take to be the all-Vulcan version of Starfleet): You can have Michael or Burnham take a position with us but not both. Fans of Star Trek will know it's a meaningless choice because Spock chose Starfleet. However, for Sarek, it is a choice for which of his children mean the most to him and it's not hard to guess which he picks. A choice which crushes Michael's dreams and yet is entirely pointless. It's a wonderful explanation for why Sarek and Spock didn't speak for 10 years.
This episode, by this bit, does an excellent job of justifying Discovery's existence as part of the original timeline's continuity. It's not the only acknowledgement this takes place in the "Prime" universe as we find out the Constitution-class starship is already in service as well as the Enterprise in particular. This opens up the possibility of Christopher Pike showing up on the show and possibly a recast Spock (albeit I'd hope they'd get Zachery Quinto for the role if possible). Discovery broke a lot of rules and continuity at the start and while I was okay with this, I think these nods will help bring more continuity-obsessed Trekkies to its table.
An age appropriate romance in Star Trek!
The biggest change in character is the discovery Captain Lorca (Jason Isaacs) isn't playing with a full deck. After the destruction of his previous command, at his own hand, we suspected he was feeling tremendous guilt but we discover now he's actually got full-blown PTSD. A disorder which means he shouldn't be commanding the Discovery, which Admiral Cornwell (Jayne Brook) decides after he pulls a phaser from under his pillow and almost disintegrates her. The fact she's both his ex-lover and a old academy friend who has been covering for him explains a great deal but also makes his decision at the end of the episode all the more reprehensible. It will take a lot to redeem Captain Lorca from it if he's redeemable at all.
So, do I think the character of Ash Tyler is actually Voq the Klingon? Yes, I'm pretty much certain of it unless Captain Lorca somehow turns out to be him. There's a lot of little hints which general audiences would miss like, "You fight like a Klingon" and him having met Michael Burnham before. I think the fact he's probably going to sleep with Michael Burnham is going to make the revelation all the more disturbing in the long run but I also believe it's going to seal the fake-Tyler's fate. Thankfully, this show doesn't seem to hesitate in killing off characters.
The Vulcan haircut needs to be modified for women.
Some people have issues with the depiction of the Vulcans in the show, apparently not happy there's now a bunch of terrorists in a species known for its pacifism. I, on the hand, remember "Amok Time" showed there was a dark side to the Vulcan race which they kept hushed up but was always there. Basically, I both love as well as admire the Vulcan race both from an in and out of universe perspective but I also think it's important not to paint with too broad of a brush. Tibet is a country which has many wonderful qualities but it also had a dark side and so do the Vulcans. Besides, not all Vulcans are racists or terrorists, we know that.
In conclusion, this was an excellent episode but raises more issues than it resolves. My biggest complaint is the fact the Klingons take an opportunity of peace talks to once more engage in an act of deception as well as murder. I know Klingon honor has been flexible before but this is getting to the point it's observed more in breach than obedience. We really need someone who has some code of behavior to show up soon.
8/10
http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2017/10/star-trek-discovery-episode-s106.html
STAR TREK: DISCOVERY is a show which is consistently improving the more it continues but it's also doing so by moving away from what made you unique. The pilot introduced the possibility of a Star Trek "war" show which showed the Klingons and Federation in roughly equal measure. It promised space battles and a new look at Klingon culture. Unfortunately, we got waylaid with the "Spore Drive" plotline that was less than satisfying.
The past two episodes, however, have been classic Trek with the "Captain kidnapped by aliens" and now "An ambassador needs to be rescued" mission. In short, Discovery is moving back to what made Star Trek great but that isn't necessarily something I fully support. I feel like it's pulling back from it's firm commitment to trying something new in order to do something safe--no matter how much I enjoy said safe option.
Ash Tyler and Michael Burnham have great chemistry.
The premise for this episode is Sarek (James Frain) is on a mission of peace to the Klingon Empire when his aide is discovered to be a "logic extremist" that amounts to the Vulcan ISIL. His aide blows himself up but Sarek survives, barely, due to getting his ship's interior shields up in time. Michael Burnham, due to being his adopted daughter, senses his distress and compels her captain to help find him. This is the final straw for Starfleet, however, because it compels Commodore Cornwell to investigate Lorca's recent decisions. Lorca attempts to rely on their past relationship as friends as well as lovers but it only exposes just how damaged his past actions have made him.
The most interesting plot for this episode is definitely the Sarek-Michael Burnham one. It is the first storyline which makes it necessary for Michael to be the previously-unknown sister of Star Trek's most iconic character (even exceeding Kirk). Sarek raised Michael to be the perfect Vulcan despite her being human and assumed that would be proof of how much potential humanity possesses. At least, that's my read on the character.
I like Frain's Sarek who is (ironically) human and flawed.
Instead, Sarek finds out for a supposedly logical race that old habits like prejudice die hard. He's given an impossible choice by the Vulcan Expeditionary Force (which I take to be the all-Vulcan version of Starfleet): You can have Michael or Burnham take a position with us but not both. Fans of Star Trek will know it's a meaningless choice because Spock chose Starfleet. However, for Sarek, it is a choice for which of his children mean the most to him and it's not hard to guess which he picks. A choice which crushes Michael's dreams and yet is entirely pointless. It's a wonderful explanation for why Sarek and Spock didn't speak for 10 years.
This episode, by this bit, does an excellent job of justifying Discovery's existence as part of the original timeline's continuity. It's not the only acknowledgement this takes place in the "Prime" universe as we find out the Constitution-class starship is already in service as well as the Enterprise in particular. This opens up the possibility of Christopher Pike showing up on the show and possibly a recast Spock (albeit I'd hope they'd get Zachery Quinto for the role if possible). Discovery broke a lot of rules and continuity at the start and while I was okay with this, I think these nods will help bring more continuity-obsessed Trekkies to its table.
An age appropriate romance in Star Trek!
The biggest change in character is the discovery Captain Lorca (Jason Isaacs) isn't playing with a full deck. After the destruction of his previous command, at his own hand, we suspected he was feeling tremendous guilt but we discover now he's actually got full-blown PTSD. A disorder which means he shouldn't be commanding the Discovery, which Admiral Cornwell (Jayne Brook) decides after he pulls a phaser from under his pillow and almost disintegrates her. The fact she's both his ex-lover and a old academy friend who has been covering for him explains a great deal but also makes his decision at the end of the episode all the more reprehensible. It will take a lot to redeem Captain Lorca from it if he's redeemable at all.
So, do I think the character of Ash Tyler is actually Voq the Klingon? Yes, I'm pretty much certain of it unless Captain Lorca somehow turns out to be him. There's a lot of little hints which general audiences would miss like, "You fight like a Klingon" and him having met Michael Burnham before. I think the fact he's probably going to sleep with Michael Burnham is going to make the revelation all the more disturbing in the long run but I also believe it's going to seal the fake-Tyler's fate. Thankfully, this show doesn't seem to hesitate in killing off characters.
The Vulcan haircut needs to be modified for women.
Some people have issues with the depiction of the Vulcans in the show, apparently not happy there's now a bunch of terrorists in a species known for its pacifism. I, on the hand, remember "Amok Time" showed there was a dark side to the Vulcan race which they kept hushed up but was always there. Basically, I both love as well as admire the Vulcan race both from an in and out of universe perspective but I also think it's important not to paint with too broad of a brush. Tibet is a country which has many wonderful qualities but it also had a dark side and so do the Vulcans. Besides, not all Vulcans are racists or terrorists, we know that.
In conclusion, this was an excellent episode but raises more issues than it resolves. My biggest complaint is the fact the Klingons take an opportunity of peace talks to once more engage in an act of deception as well as murder. I know Klingon honor has been flexible before but this is getting to the point it's observed more in breach than obedience. We really need someone who has some code of behavior to show up soon.
8/10
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I don't want to presume that, but I do fear it. The Tardigrade stuff was rote Trek business, playing out exactly as you'd expect, and Michael -- the lead -- is more a collection of plot points than a character. Meanwhile, the Klingon storyline has been thin gruel and a slog to watch. Plus, we're spending a lot of time in familiar Trek territory -- Sarek, Harry Mudd, Vulcan/human duality, possibly the Mirror Universe. I love the Lorca ambiguity, but that seems more the exception than the rule. I can see why people are taking the often heavyhanded foreshadowing at face value.
That said, I hope the show ends up surprising me in big ways. The Lorca storyline gives me hope and keeps me watching.
Yeah, I don't find it funny that detractors/semi-critics of the show are positing this stuff - I would expect it. But it seems weird to me to profess to like the show so far and also expect the show to either reach a very predictable conclusion (essentially following the hero(ine)s journey) or to be so stupid as to step on its own dick.
I think people are in a weird place where they want both it to feel more like classic Trek AND do something different.
Mind you, I don't expect Star Wars 9 to end with Rey murdering Luke and becoming the God Emperor of the Galaxy so I don't expect Star Trek: Discovery to end with the plucky Science Heroine siding with the Mad General.
With Star Trek you expect some themes which are nice to play with but I see no sign they're going to avert.
Yes, it'll probably be disappointing to have Captain Lorca as "nothing more" than a villain in the end but it's also a show where unless he's somehow redeemed, they can't continue with as this isn't the Star Trek version of Breaking Bad.
Mind you, I don't expect Star Wars 9 to end with Rey murdering Luke and becoming the God Emperor of the Galaxy so I don't expect Star Trek: Discovery to end with the plucky Science Heroine siding with the Mad General.
With Star Trek you expect some themes which are nice to play with but I see no sign they're going to avert.
Yes, it'll probably be disappointing to have Captain Lorca as "nothing more" than a villain in the end but it's also a show where unless he's somehow redeemed, they can't continue with as this isn't the Star Trek version of Breaking Bad.
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Well, I do like the show. I probably sound more negative than I intend. But it's normal to base your expectations on what we've seen so far. Plus, a lot of the fan theories suggesting obvious outcomes -- Voq is Tyler -- have pretty convincing arguments behind them. We'll have to wait and see if the writing is too transparent or if they're playing six-dimensional chess with us.
Yeah, that bugged me too. That was some of the most fake looking blood I've seen in a long time.
It honestly didn't occur to me until I saw people posting about it here that Lorca might have purposefully manipulated Cornwell into a position where she would be be captured or killed, but I think that isn't true. He has been doing some questionable things up to this point, but I really don't think he's that bad. I really think Cornwell did get to him, and he's now trying to do what she told him and stick to the rules. So far pretty much all of the questionable things he's done have been for a good reason, but sacrificing Cornwell for his own gain, would cross the line, and I don't see that happening at the moment.
I haven't seen that myself. I've seen so many variations of theories for all the characters that the really isn't a consensus of what will happen. Although I totally disagree with you on that fans are rooting for the show to be dumb based on their predictions.
I see Lorca more as a Matt Decker. He won't be bad at the end but definitely mad, mad as a hatter! He'll probably do something to sacrifice himself that will show others how to resolve the situation. It probably won't be as simple as that, but that's my guess in broad strokes.
I like the theory they'll somehow retcon him into being Garth of Izar but yes, I see something like him finding a Doomsday Machine or whatnot he intends to use on Kronos only to have the heroes stop him.
My theory is the somewhat more despicable but not Moral Event Horizon (see Tv tropes) idea that Lorca asked Cornwell to go to the negotiations as a stalling tactic rather than an attempt to eliminate her. He saw Sarek was injured and knew Corwell was on the peace negotiations side so he took advantage of knowing her well enough to manipulate her from heading back to Starfleet command until the negotiations were done. Something that could potentially delay his loss of command for weeks or even months--enough time to give him the "teach a horse to sing" time to develop a strategy to keep Command or fight a few more battles against the Klingons.
Instead, it resulted in her kidnapping and he realized the problem was resolved....as long as he didn't rescue her.
Which is an evil evil thing to do but a "evil of opportunity."
Haha! That's not exactly what I'm thinking but who knows!
I'm guessing in his madness he'll see a solution and he'll do something absolutely crazy to attempt the solution himself. In fact, it's probably his madness that allows him to see the solution in the first place whereas others don't see it at all. He fails and dies in the process. Everyone else sees the potential and says, "look, we can do that, but in a smarter way!"
This is what I'm thinking too, explaining the glaring omission of Garth from Saru's list of "great captains".
Saru's list of the most decorated SF captains included first and last names, ordered alphabetically. Does Garth have a last name? And if "Garth" is his last name, does he have a first name? In either case, his omission was likely to favour more familiar characters like Pike, Georgiou & Archer, along with the TAS nod with April.
A
Amaris
Guest
I like my captains like I enjoy my tea: hot, bitter, and British.
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