ST:TMP: Was such a massive refit of the USS Enterprise logical?

[Ithekro]

I seem to recall the nacelles of at least two refit style Constitutions in Spacedock while Kirk's crew were bring brought to the new USS Enterprise-A. Plus Mr. Scott was looking over what appears to be a blueprint-like diagram for the class, in the Undiscovered Country. I fail to remember if the drawing had a hull number on it.

 

[Dukhat]

I seem to recall the nacelles of at least two refit style Constitutions in Spacedock while Kirk's crew were bring brought to the new USS Enterprise-A.

Here's what you're describing:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvhhd/normal_tvhhd2248.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tvhhd/normal_tvhhd2250.jpg

IRL, they're obviously the TMP Enterprise standing in for other ships. In-universe, they could be other classes since we don't see the ships in full.

There's also this:

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2313/2512614650_8116b0ee68_o.jpg

 

[Henoch]

Possible Enterprise history starting in its mid-life around 2262:

1. start-2262 to mid-2263 Enterprise major refit under Captain Pike. (Major internal structural framing and warp engines replaced.)
2. mid-2263 to mid-2266 Pike 3 YR command (internal United Earth milk runs).
3. mid-2266 Pike 5YR mission launched (several 5YR missions launched simultaneously from Federation member planets as part of celebration of Starfleet taking over joint Federation space command); Pike promoted shortly after launch. Kirk takes over 5YR mission.
4. mid-2266 to mid-2271 Kirk 5YR mission (deep space exploration/patrols)
5. mid-2271 to mid-2275 Kirk 4 YR command (internal Federation milk runs - zero engagements, peace is hell); Kirk promoted mid-2275.
6. mid-2275 to mid-2276 Enterprise under someone else for 1 year, or idle in space dock.
7. mid-2276 to start-2278 Enterprise redesign and refit for 1.5 years under Captain Decker. (Major saucer and engineering hull internal structural framing retained, hull skin, bridge module, warp reactor and all engines replaced.)
8. start-2278 ST:TMP (Kirk at desk 2.5 years; Enterprise 1.5 year refit.; "5 yrs out there" comment refers to 5YR mission, only; milk runs don't count).
9. start-2278 to start-2283 Spock 5 YR command (more milk runs; academy training ship; peace is satisfying).
10. start-2283 ST:TWOK (15 years after Space Seed (1968 if you use stardates and not airdates).
11. start/mid-2283 ST:TSFS (Enterprise internal structural framing is ~20 years old), Enterprise destroyed.
12. mid-2283 ST:TVH, Kirk given command of new built Enterprise-A.
13. mid-2283 to mid-2288 Kirk second 5YR mission (deep space exploration/patrols).
14. mid-2288 to mid-2293 Kirk 5YR command (more milk runs for old people and old ship design).
15. mid-2293 ST:TUC; Enterprise-A decommissioned (museum ship after minimal repairs?).

 

[Mytran]

Possible Enterprise history starting in its mid-life around 2262:

1. start-2262 to mid-2263 Enterprise major refit under Captain Pike. (Major internal structural framing and warp engines replaced.)
2. mid-2263 to mid-2266 Pike 3 YR command (internal United Earth milk runs).
3. mid-2266 Pike 5YR mission launched (several 5YR missions launched simultaneously from Federation member planets as part of celebration of Starfleet taking over joint Federation space command); Pike promoted shortly after launch. Kirk takes over 5YR mission.
4. mid-2266 to mid-2271 Kirk 5YR mission (deep space exploration/patrols)
5. mid-2271 to mid-2275 Kirk 4 YR command (internal Federation milk runs - zero engagements, peace is hell); Kirk promoted mid-2275.
6. mid-2275 to mid-2276 Enterprise under someone else for 1 year, or idle in space dock.
7. mid-2276 to start-2278 Enterprise redesign and refit for 1.5 years under Captain Decker. (Major saucer and engineering hull internal structural framing retained, hull skin, bridge module, warp reactor and all engines replaced.)
8. start-2278 ST:TMP (Kirk at desk 2.5 years; Enterprise 1.5 year refit.; "5 yrs out there" comment refers to 5YR mission, only; milk runs don't count).
9. start-2278 to start-2283 Spock 5 YR command (more milk runs; academy training ship; peace is satisfying).
10. start-2283 ST:TWOK (15 years after Space Seed (1968 if you use stardates and not airdates).
11. start/mid-2283 ST:TSFS (Enterprise internal structural framing is ~20 years old), Enterprise destroyed.
12. mid-2283 ST:TVH, Kirk given command of new built Enterprise-A.
13. mid-2283 to mid-2288 Kirk second 5YR mission (deep space exploration/patrols).
14. mid-2288 to mid-2293 Kirk 5YR command (more milk runs for old people and old ship design).
15. mid-2293 ST:TUC; Enterprise-A decommissioned (museum ship after minimal repairs?).

That's a really compelling list which covers many of the timing oddities in Trek. Just two absences that come to mind:

• Captain Morgan Bateson of the USS Bozeman was wearing a "monster maroon" uniform when he was temporally relocated from 2278 to 2368. Perhaps the new uniforms came in a short while after TMP?
• Captain Kirk left Starfleet for a short while, 9 years prior to Generations. This would be during the first year of his second 5YM according to your chronology

 

[Phoenix219]

I've always hated the idea of a second 5ym pre TMP. The gap makes way more sense after the movie, giving time to test the new tech (which is used in the Miranda class), to age up the characters, change the uniforms, and the political climate. Way more unique stories to tell inbetween TMP and II, in it's unique aesthetic. I don't mind the idea of a half refit and failed shakedown in the phase II configuration, though.

In my mind, that second five year mission ends in epic stakes and a mild failure resulting in the WoK status quo.

 

[Henoch]

aptain Kirk left Starfleet for a short while, 9 years prior to Generations. This would be during the first year of his second 5YM according to your chronology

reference?

 

[Ithekro]

Also we know Kirk's Legendary Five Year Mission ended in 2270 via Star Trek Voyager.

 

[Mytran]

reference?

From the film transcript:

PICARD: I'm from what you would consider the future, ...the twenty-fourth century.
(a dog barks in the doorway)
KIRK: Butler! ...Butler, how can you be here? ...He's been dead seven years.
ANTONIA (OC): Come on, Jim, I'm starving. How long have you been rattling around in that kitchen?
KIRK: Antonia! ...What are you talking about? ...The future? This is the past. ...This is nine years ago.
(Kirk gets a broken pair of spectacles out of a box)
KIRK: ...The day I told her I was going back to Starfleet.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

And he’d met Antonia eleven years before GEN, suggesting a hiatus from 2282 or earlier to 2284.

 

[Unicron]

There's also this:

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2313/2512614650_8116b0ee68_o.jpg

Interesting... where is that graphic from, specifically? I presume it's a TSFS one?

 

[Henoch]

Also we know Kirk's Legendary Five Year Mission ended in 2270 via Star Trek Voyager.

So, this means the 5YR mission started in 2265 (or it was the legendary four year mission). This would also correspond to the bottle of champagne dated 2265 used in the Enterprise-B christening. Good catch.

KIRK: Antonia! ...What are you talking about? ...The future? This is the past. ...This is nine years ago.
(Kirk gets a broken pair of spectacles out of a box)
KIRK: ...The day I told her I was going back to Starfleet.

Good catch, too. I assume, like you, that Kirk is not disorientated about his reference time when he entered the Nexus. Picard clearly is not.

I'll rework my history to add in the extra year and time out of Starfleet. Thanks.

 

[DanGussin]

My understanding is that Enterprise was the only original Constitution class ships to return intact from the initial set of planned five year missions.

Starfleet then took the lesions learned from these losses and the input from the Enterprise crew and basically rebuilt the Constitution class from the spaceframe up using the tech improvements that had become available.

Honestly, if America were to lose all but one aircraft carrier within a few years , the Navy would have to take a very hard look at what had gone wrong and make some large changes in ship design. And I think this is essentially what occurred in the TOS era of Trek,

 

[Dukhat]

Interesting... where is that graphic from, specifically? I presume it's a TSFS one?

@Maurice originally posted it. He thought it was from TVH.

 

[Henoch]

Honestly, if America were to lose all but one aircraft carrier within a few years , the Navy would have to take a very hard look at what had gone wrong and make some large changes in ship design. And I think this is essentially what occurred in the TOS era of Trek,

And actually in WWII, where the damaged CV-6 Enterprise (a Yorktown class) was the only operational aircraft carrier in the Pacific Theater by late-1942. The new Essex class design (heavy carrier) was built in large numbers (24) during the war first entering service in 1943. The U.S. also put the new Independence class (light carrier) (9) into service starting in 1943.

In contrast to Star Trek where there is not a war driving force, rather, we want to improve the survivability of a single starship for deep space exploration. Lesson learned (in order of importance):
1. You are going to get hit, so, shields are the most important technology to avoid serious ship damage.
2. You are going to be out-gunned or out-numbered, speed to surprise the enemy or retreat is next.
3. You are going to be in a fire-fight or want to take a position of power, weapons are next.
4. Sensors/Computational analysis provide information for effective tactics and to remove the fog of the situation.

Does the TMP redesign incorporate these lessons? Yep. New shields survive V'GER hit that destroyed all other ships (check). High speed is suggested by new engines/warp drive redesign plus speed record comment in STIII (check). New phaser power is amped up; Photon torpedoes look about the same power but new/more launchers are present (check). Sensors/Computational power didn't impress me to be any more special than the TOS levels.

 

[Unicron]

I admit, I've always disliked the V'ger shield problem personally, since I view it as a repeat of one of the sillier aspects of "The Changeling."

 

[Ithekro]

It is unclear if USS Enterprise was the only starship to of her class to return from the Five Year Missions, (especially post-Discovery, when we have Pike being on a Five Year Mission in the 50s).

However a number of Constitutions were lost during Kirk's Five Year Mission in the late 60s.
Constellation and Intrepid to huge space objects
Excalibur to friendly fire
Defiant to a dimensional rift.
Exeter's crew was killed by disease.

Enterprise was nearly lost many times.

 

[Maurice]

@Maurice originally posted it. He thought it was from TVH.

The reasons I believe this was from ST4 are:

1. While there are shots from inside a Spacedock control tower in both ST3 and ST4, the truncated numbers on this indicate the Excelsior 200[0] and a ship with a number 177[#], each with a flightpath out of a different door, which doesn't fit ST3.
2. This is clearly a Mike Okuda design, and Okuda didn't come to work on Trek until ST4.

 

[Henoch]

Spacedock design: The outer shell acts as a space harbor. The four spokes in the middle are the docks. Never realized that the docks were an inner feature of Spacedock. Do the docks rotate independently from the shell? Does anything rotate? So, where's Enterprise?

 

[Ithekro]

Best guess? This was for when the Whale Probe arrived (new screen for when they lose power.).

The future USSEnterprise is either the numbered ship trying to leave out the east door, or its the unlabled starship on the southwest side of the dock (which might be undergoing refit), or its a ship that has not arrived yet at Spacedock.

 

[Dukhat]

Spacedock design: The outer shell acts as a space harbor. The four spokes in the middle are the docks. Never realized that the docks were an inner feature of Spacedock. Do the docks rotate independently from the shell? Does anything rotate? So, where's Enterprise?

Best guess? This was for when the Whale Probe arrived (new screen for when they lose power.).

The future USSEnterprise is either the numbered ship trying to leave out the east door, or its the unlabled starship on the southwest side of the dock (which might be undergoing refit), or its a ship that has not arrived yet at Spacedock.

I wouldn't assume that this graphic was made to perfectly match what happened in the film. It was just a background okudagram that wasn't meant to be analyzed up close (hence the shortened registry numbers.)