Spoilers ST Picard - Starships and Technology Season Two Discussion

[Deks]

But people after the point of divergence have likely travelled back before the point of divergence.

You mean to suggest that time travellers from the Confederacy future travelled to Earth's past before 2024 that may have influenced development of solar forcefield technology?

If that's what you meant, I'm afraid we have no evidence to support that hypothesis.

Picard said that the Confederacy didn't have any mention/use of time travel technology (hence why they needed to resort to 'cruder method' of using the star to time warp)... although to be fair, any mention of time travel tech might be considered highly classified for the Confederacy and not something even 'Picard' would have access to without proper clearance (but, at the same time, I can also see why the Confederacy wouldn't have or use this technology at all).

I maintain that its still likely that the solar forcefield tech existed in both Conf. and UFP timelines... just that it was never needed in the UFP timeline, whereas the Confederacy never fixed the Earth (and this innovation may have been influenced by some faster implementation of science and technology - perhaps programmable metamaterials from 1970-ies onward).

 

[Dukhat]

I mean, if we have them in two years I guess it didn't...

You are talking about real life. I was not. I was talking about the fact that Adam Soong had forcefield technology in 2024 (before the divergence in the timeline) even though they didn't have forcefield technology during ENT 130 years later.

 

[Deks]

You are talking about real life. I was not. I was talking about the fact that Adam Soong had forcefield technology in 2024 (before the divergence in the timeline) even though they didn't have forcefield technology during ENT 130 years later.

Perhaps they are different force field technologies.
The solar force field tech is probably different compared to electrostatic forcefield tech SF was experimenting with in the 22nd century (even before the NX-01 was launched) and later on used as a basis for internal forcefields and shield technology.

There is a difference (or at least I think there would be) between creating a field that would nullify/reduce sun radiation vs all purpose forcefield to block matter and eventually directed energy.

Also, the way the solar force-field technology was portrayed in 2024 looked more like an extremely transparent and foldable (origami like) material with energy flowing through it... granted it DID disappear when it was disengaged, but it didn't strike me like a regular forcefield technology we know of... it seemed more like a programmable metamaterial. It may 'shade over' when its activated/charged up, but otherwise is 100% transparent (and the drones stayed in close formation to each other when it was deactivated... they didn't disperse).

SF had actual field projection technology (which I would surmise would be more advanced than using say an electrically charged metamaterial).
Similar to what the NX-01 used for their hull plating by running an electrical charge through it to 'harden it up' when going into combat.

Only here, Soong may have used a highly porous and foldable metamaterial that had an electrical charge running through it to block out most if not all of sun's radiation.

 

[Dukhat]

Perhaps they are different force field technologies.

Yes, I agree completely. But the technology was there. It could have been expanded upon in the 130 years between Soong having it and the Earth Starfleet having it.

 

[Ronald Held]

Maybe 21 century Soong never shared it with anyone, and had to be reinvented?

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe 21 century Soong never shared it with anyone, and had to be reinvented?

Maybe if Soong was the one who actually invented it. But for all we know someone built it for him.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Moving on to 2x06:

- Agnes uses a 2024-standard USB-A drive to do the "upload a virus into the mothership" thing clearly inspired by Dr. Okun someone familiar with it. Did they figure all this out on La Sirena and replicate a drive? And I guess USB-C is finding it as tough to become a true standard on desktop PC tech in this universe as it is in our own?

- Likewise, Agnes somehow carries a full-size evil hypospray strapped under her dress. We HAVE seen hypos been used to disperse a payload in aerosolized form (TNG "Genesis" comes to mind), but area effect like this is a first. Chalking it up to evil technology again, but I'm willing to bet they planned this and Agnes was administered something to be immune to the effects of whatever it was she sprayed.

- Glee-level musicians in the band, or did the Borg Queen nano-programmed them to know exactly the tune, when to chime in, and how long Agnes would be singing?

- Yes, that was a model of Nomad, launched in 2002 in the Trek universe. And yes, that was the same OV-165 from the opening of Enterprise, placing its existence and flight(s) at 2024 or earlier. Great nods this week in an otherwise tech-lite episode.

Mark

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

- Agnes uses a 2024-standard USB-A drive to do the "upload a virus into the mothership" thing clearly inspired by Dr. Okun someone familiar with it. Did they figure all this out on La Sirena and replicate a drive? And I guess USB-C is finding it as tough to become a true standard on desktop PC tech in this universe as it is in our own?

It's 2021 and USB-C is still a mess

USB-C Was Supposed to Simplify Our Lives. Instead, It’s a Total Mess.

USB-C Is Still a Mess

USB-C is still a mess | Y-Combinator

Old School Type-A ports has 20+ years to become standard, Type-C has a complicated (Vendor Selectable) feature set that varies dramatically with implementation. Cable Quality is dodgy as heck across the board depending on whom you get it from.
Each vendor implements a different set of the full feature list, ergo making Type-C cables (Expensive, prone to upselling and tricking consumers into what it's capabilities are, and a EXPENSIVE PITA (Pain-In-The-Ass) to source).

- Likewise, Agnes somehow carries a full-size evil hypospray strapped under her dress. We HAVE seen hypos been used to disperse a payload in aerosolized form (TNG "Genesis" comes to mind), but area effect like this is a first. Chalking it up to evil technology again, but I'm willing to bet they planned this and Agnes was administered something to be immune to the effects of whatever it was she sprayed.

That's what I was thinking.

- Glee-level musicians in the band, or did the Borg Queen nano-programmed them to know exactly the tune, when to chime in, and how long Agnes would be singing?

I think the Borg Queen hacked the song list that the band was scheduled to play and auto-tuned Jurati to sing at "Perfect Form" for the audience as a distraction. The band knew they had to play a set of songs, they probably didn't know if their contracted singer was going to show up on-time. They might've thought that Jurati was their "Replacement" or "Back-up Singer" for the event.

- Yes, that was a model of Nomad, launched in 2002 in the Trek universe. And yes, that was the same OV-165 from the opening of Enterprise, placing its existence and flight(s) at 2024 or earlier. Great nods this week in an otherwise tech-lite episode.

I love the OV-165 reference.

 

[Ronald Held]

So in two years, USB-A will win over USB-C as a default port type?

 

[Vale]

And yes, that was the same OV-165 from the opening of Enterprise, placing its existence and flight(s) at 2024 or earlier.

Since the OV-165 was heavily based on the VentureStar concept we might assume it went into production in the Trek timeline, unlike our own where the project was cancelled in 2001. As such it likely succeeded the Space Shuttle once it was retired in 2011 as NASA's reusable orbital space vehicle of choice.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So in two years, USB-A will win over USB-C as a default port type?

LOL, no. That's not how it works

At best, Type-C will co-exist with Type-A and all the other USB ports.

Even with time, USB Type-C may become as popular as USB Micro-B, but Type-A will stick around forever given how cheap it is to implement

USB Type-C is WAY more expensive to implement compared to USB Type-A ports.

Just look at the Pin-out for Type-C compared to Type-A or SuperSpeed Type-A ports.

Think about the number of quality copper wires needed to implement each cable.

The amount of hardware needed to run USB Type-C at full speed per port is just more expensive, the port receptor is more expensive to implement / manufacture. The cabling is more expensive to make if done properly.

USB Type-A has 4 pins, SuperSpeed Type-A has 9 pins
SuperSpeed Type-A can have 1x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lane.

USB Type-C has 24 fine & delicate pins.

Type-C by default can support up to 2x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lane.

In USB-C Alternative mode: the port can have up to 3x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lanes at the cost of dropping built in USB 2.0 Back Compat and updating the hardware controllers to support it (I'm betting USB 5 will be thinking about doing this, killing USB 2.0 back Compat for more speed).

If you take away Bus-Power pins from Type-C and use them in Alternative mode, you could easily have 4x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lanes, you'll just need to power the connected device via outside DC Power Connector.
That's usually a price worth making if you want to brute force more Full Duplex Bandwidth at the cost of breaking the standard and using a "Alternative Mode" of USB Type-C along with hardware & software to support it.

If you want to go "Max Speed" in Assymetric mode, you could borrow the Side-Band channels and have 1x SuperSpeed lane for a slow one direction and 8x Super Speed lanes for the other direction. Obviously you'll be using a "Alternative Mode" of USB, but since you're not using the standard communication protocols, you can get INCREDIBLE speed by having 8x 20 Gbps SuperSpeed Lanes for a direction and 1x 20 Gbps SuperSpeed Lane for the other direction.

That's how flexible you can get with using the "Alternative Mode" of USB Type-C and intentionally breaking standard like some vendors have chosen when using "Alternative Mode" of the Type-C physical port standard.

This level of programmability and customizability has a cost, and it isn't cheap, you need custom hardware and a modified based USB software stack to do it, but 3rd party vendors have been able to get crazy bandwidth out of Type-C.

This is all before TB5 / USB5 which is thinking about upping the speed of each SuperSpeed Lanes to 80 Gbps via new encoding methods: PAM-3 Encoding modulation.

That comes to 40 Gbps per Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lane.

If the USB standard was smart, they would update USB 4.1 to have SuperSpeed Type-A take the latest SuperSpeed standard of 20 Gbps per SuperSpeed channel and allow a "Cheaper/Simpler" SuperSpeed Type-A port that has 20 Gbps Full Duplex.

We could call it "Type-C mini" or "Mini-C" connector and have less pins / connectors based on a shrunken & modified USB Type-C physical port spec and do most of what Type-C wants, for FAR less $$$ in terms of BoM (Bill of Material) cost to make.

Most Electronics vendors wants things to get "Smaller", and Type-C is unfortunately not "Small Enough" IMO.

The fools who thought USB Type-C was going to take over the world was also thinking that everybody needs to drive "Gas Guzzling LARGE SUV's the size of a Escalade" and that would be the standard of communication everybody needs/have.

The reality is, we need "Small / Medium / Large" connectors, each one suited to a specific purpose.

Small = USB 2.0 Type-A and all it's sibling connectors.
Medium = SuperSpeed Type-A and all it's sibling connectors.
Large = USB 3.x/4.x Type-C

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

So… USB-A is here forever, then? Unless the Trek universe has some meaisre of hope that we don’t?

mark

 

[Dukhat]

FireWire was the bomb. Until it wasn’t.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

FireWire was the bomb. Until it wasn’t.

Modern Military is still using FireWire due to it's robust decentralized nature.

SAE Aerospace standard AS5643 originally released in 2004 and reaffirmed in 2013 establishes IEEE-1394 standards as a military and aerospace databus network in those vehicles. AS5643 is utilized by several large programs, including the F-35 Lightning II, the X-47B UCAV aircraft, AGM-154 weapon and JPSS-1 polar satellite for NOAA. AS5643 combines existing 1394-2008 features like looped topology with additional features like transformer isolation and time synchronization, to create deterministic double and triple fault-tolerant data bus networks.

FireWire has it's place, but it wasn't the "Cheaper" solution, ergo USB took over and won.

Like VHS vs BetaMax.
Like HD-DVD vs BluRay
etc.

 

[Ronald Held]

LOL, no. That's not how it works

At best, Type-C will co-exist with Type-A and all the other USB ports.

Even with time, USB Type-C may become as popular as USB Micro-B, but Type-A will stick around forever given how cheap it is to implement

USB Type-C is WAY more expensive to implement compared to USB Type-A ports.

Just look at the Pin-out for Type-C compared to Type-A or SuperSpeed Type-A ports.

Think about the number of quality copper wires needed to implement each cable.

The amount of hardware needed to run USB Type-C at full speed per port is just more expensive, the port receptor is more expensive to implement / manufacture. The cabling is more expensive to make if done properly.

USB Type-A has 4 pins, SuperSpeed Type-A has 9 pins
SuperSpeed Type-A can have 1x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lane.

USB Type-C has 24 fine & delicate pins.

Type-C by default can support up to 2x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lane.

In USB-C Alternative mode: the port can have up to 3x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lanes at the cost of dropping built in USB 2.0 Back Compat and updating the hardware controllers to support it (I'm betting USB 5 will be thinking about doing this, killing USB 2.0 back Compat for more speed).

If you take away Bus-Power pins from Type-C and use them in Alternative mode, you could easily have 4x Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lanes, you'll just need to power the connected device via outside DC Power Connector.
That's usually a price worth making if you want to brute force more Full Duplex Bandwidth at the cost of breaking the standard and using a "Alternative Mode" of USB Type-C along with hardware & software to support it.

If you want to go "Max Speed" in Assymetric mode, you could borrow the Side-Band channels and have 1x SuperSpeed lane for a slow one direction and 8x Super Speed lanes for the other direction. Obviously you'll be using a "Alternative Mode" of USB, but since you're not using the standard communication protocols, you can get INCREDIBLE speed by having 8x 20 Gbps SuperSpeed Lanes for a direction and 1x 20 Gbps SuperSpeed Lane for the other direction.

That's how flexible you can get with using the "Alternative Mode" of USB Type-C and intentionally breaking standard like some vendors have chosen when using "Alternative Mode" of the Type-C physical port standard.

This level of programmability and customizability has a cost, and it isn't cheap, you need custom hardware and a modified based USB software stack to do it, but 3rd party vendors have been able to get crazy bandwidth out of Type-C.

This is all before TB5 / USB5 which is thinking about upping the speed of each SuperSpeed Lanes to 80 Gbps via new encoding methods: PAM-3 Encoding modulation.

That comes to 40 Gbps per Full Duplex SuperSpeed Lane.

If the USB standard was smart, they would update USB 4.1 to have SuperSpeed Type-A take the latest SuperSpeed standard of 20 Gbps per SuperSpeed channel and allow a "Cheaper/Simpler" SuperSpeed Type-A port that has 20 Gbps Full Duplex.

We could call it "Type-C mini" or "Mini-C" connector and have less pins / connectors based on a shrunken & modified USB Type-C physical port spec and do most of what Type-C wants, for FAR less $$$ in terms of BoM (Bill of Material) cost to make.

Most Electronics vendors wants things to get "Smaller", and Type-C is unfortunately not "Small Enough" IMO.

The fools who thought USB Type-C was going to take over the world was also thinking that everybody needs to drive "Gas Guzzling LARGE SUV's the size of a Escalade" and that would be the standard of communication everybody needs/have.

The reality is, we need "Small / Medium / Large" connectors, each one suited to a specific purpose.

Small = USB 2.0 Type-A and all it's sibling connectors.
Medium = SuperSpeed Type-A and all it's sibling connectors.
Large = USB 3.x/4.x Type-C

Thanks for all that information.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Thanks for all that information.

No Prob =D

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

I'm not sure how this should register under Tech or not, but what about Picard's new body getting whacked by a whackadoodle this week? Apparently no bones were broken, and any other damage was internal or cosmetic at best. If it weren't for whatever weird feedback they got when trying to zap him, it wouldn't have been any different than the average vehicular manslaughter attempt shown on a television drama.

Point being, what if anything does this say about Picard's new body? I thought it was supposed to largely be human and at the age he was at, just without the Irumodic Syndrome from which he suffered and which strangely unnamed last season...

Mark

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I'm not sure how this should register under Tech or not, but what about Picard's new body getting whacked by a whackadoodle this week? Apparently no bones were broken, and any other damage was internal or cosmetic at best. If it weren't for whatever weird feedback they got when trying to zap him, it wouldn't have been any different than the average vehicular manslaughter attempt shown on a television drama.

Point being, what if anything does this say about Picard's new body? I thought it was supposed to largely be human and at the age he was at, just without the Irumodic Syndrome from which he suffered and which strangely unnamed last season...

Mark

If JLP was in his biological body at the age Patrick Stewart is IRL, he wouldn't have survived the Hit & Run by the Tesla that Adam Soong was driving. You know how much mass is in that Tesla?, Those are HEAVY vehicles.

It looked like a Tesla Model Y, and those have a curb weight of 4,416 lb.

That's a HEAVY vehicle to get hit by.

Since his body is now a Synth / Golem. He's much tougher than before.

He may not have "Super Powers" as requested, but doesn't mean he doesn't retain that Synth/Golem durability that comes with that new body.

 

[Vale]

Point being, what if anything does this say about Picard's new body? I thought it was supposed to largely be human and at the age he was at, just without the Irumodic Syndrome from which he suffered and which strangely unnamed last season...

He didn't suffer from Irumodic Syndrome. Picard had a structural abnormality in the parietal lobe that could, to quote Dr Crusher in TNG: "All Good Things", "cause [him] to be susceptible to several kinds of neurological disorders including Irumodic Syndrome"; or, to quote Dr Benayoun in PIC: "Maps and Legends", Picard was suffering from "one of a number of related syndromes", but to figure out exactly which one he'd "need to run more tests". The structural abnormality itself was not Irumodic Syndrome, and his symptoms in season one of Picard did not match the symptoms of Irumodic Syndrome as seen in "All Good Things" – it seemed more like a brain tumour than dementia.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Hey, remember how there was this bright, shiny starship introduced in 2x01, and then they quickly moved all the action away from it before the end of the episode? We're sure to come back to the Stargazer (and that it will be a major player in the third and final season of the show), but until then here's a ridiculously good CG recreation of what we've seen so far:

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Mark