• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers ST Picard - Starships and Technology Season Two Discussion

Why would they no longer exist?

Do you remember barely six posts previously where we established that changing the future also changed the past because time travel? Why must you be so mind-numbingly obtuse over any minor plot detail you even slightly disagree with?
 
Do you remember barely six posts previously where we established that changing the future also changed the past because time travel? Why must you be so mind-numbingly obtuse over any minor plot detail you even slightly disagree with?

1. Enough with the personal attacks. They are against the Board rules.

2. You are still evading my question. Why would the drones no longer exist?

Because whatever past changes caused by different future time travel stories that led to them to be invented early will revert to the original interactions twixt future and past.

How do you know that time travel is going to change when they were invented?
 
Because whatever past changes caused by different future time travel stories that led to them to be invented early will revert to the original interactions twixt future and past.

But the solar forcefield drones already existed before the point of divergence independent of Q's interference... meaning that Earth was originally already on this trajectory even in the prime timeline.

What we can speculate about certain things about why they may be more advanced:
For example, in the real world, many more efficient and better methods of production and technologies based on programmable metamaterials were suggested as far back in the 1970-ies along with superior synthetic materials which can be made in sustainable abundance with minimal impact to the environment.

What if the Earth in the Trek universe didn't have some of the hangups like we had and decided to incorporate use of some of these developments decades ago which also led to commerical development and use of other technology (such as what created genetically modified humans/augments and created a war in the 90-ies which lead to the ban of genetic modification tech on humans - at least for the purpose of augmentation - because if ALL genetic modification was banned, then I don't think that Soong would be allowed to even develop genetic treatments to help his daughter).

Also, that solar drone forcefiel technology could have been highly proprietary and not available in the general market... plus, these events are happening in 2024... 2 years after today... and we have been experimenting with field based technology in real life too (at least, I remember there was something on for sale years ago that would effectively create a 'bubble' around 2 or more people to prevent eavesdropping - can't remember what it was called - but something similar was proposed back in 1970-ies to the point where certain signals can be specifically directed to a person receiving a message or communication of some kind without a technological aid - aka, the source of the transmission would be focused on transmitting the message or audio directly to the recipient ears).

A lot of interesting things that could have been developed decades ago never were developed... not because we couldn't but mainly because it wasn't seen as cost effective or particularly profitable.

So, what if Trek Earth used some of these technologies which simply lead to use of some other technology which seems more advanced?
 
Last edited:
1. Enough with the personal attacks. They are against the Board rules.

Then complain to a mod and they can decide which one of us is being the most unreasonable :shrug:

2. You are still evading my question. Why would the drones no longer exist?

I already responded: "we established that changing the future also changed the past because time travel". This has been a general principle seen in Star Trek before, and is explicitly the case in Picard because Guinan and Picard didn't meet in the 1890s; therefore the 2024 we're in now isn't quite the same as the 2024 of the "correct" future, but can be course-corrected, which will retroactively realign the timeline back to where it should be.

Or maybe, I don't know, the Soong family have a genetic disposition for continually inventing technology decades if not centuries ahead of its time, because Q/Progenitors/Guardian of Forever/something Michael Burnham will do in Discovery season twelve. Or they're a new Chronowerx product using the last of their 29th century tech supplies due to the Eugenics Wars depleting the ozone layer. Or maybe the 20th and 21st centuries of Star Trek have always been just slightly different from the real ones, probably due to the laws of physics in the Star Trek universe not quite aligning with what we know them to be in ours, and have always had weird technologies that seem to be impossible.

Or maybe because, as mentioned – TIME TRAVEL.

How do you know that time travel is going to change when they were invented?

Because they exist in the wrong timeline and probably don't exist in the correct timeline!? :brickwall:
 
Then complain to a mod and they can decide which one of us is being the most unreasonable

I know a personal attack when I see one. I'm kindly telling you to knock it off so a mod doesn't have to get involved at all.

I already responded: "we established that changing the future also changed the past because time travel". This has been a general principle seen in Star Trek before, and is explicitly the case in Picard because Guinan and Picard didn't meet in the 1890s; therefore the 2024 we're in now isn't quite the same as the 2024 of the "correct" future, but can be course-corrected, which will retroactively realign the timeline back to where it should be.

Or maybe, I don't know, the Soong family have a genetic disposition for continually inventing technology decades if not centuries ahead of its time, because Q/Progenitors/Guardian of Forever/something Michael Burnham will do in Discovery season twelve. Or they're a new Chronowerx product using the last of their 29th century tech supplies due to the Eugenics Wars depleting the ozone layer. Or maybe the 20th and 21st centuries of Star Trek have always been just slightly different from the real ones, probably due to the laws of physics in the Star Trek universe not quite aligning with what we know them to be in ours, and have always had weird technologies that seem to be impossible.

Or maybe because, as mentioned – TIME TRAVEL.

Except none of that doublespeak actually proves anything. You don't know that Soong's drones will vanish in a puff of smoke once the timeline gets corrected any more than Soong himself will. The only thing we know for certain is that correcting the timeline will make the Confederacy cease to exist in the future and the Federation will exist instead.

Because they exist in the wrong timeline and probably don't exist in the correct timeline!? :brickwall:

Again, complete supposition. Your emoticon can knock his head against the wall all it wants. It won't change the fact that saying 'things disappeared because time travel' is not even remotely a valid way to prove anything.
 
Again, complete supposition. Your emoticon can knock his head against the wall all it wants. It won't change the fact that saying 'things disappeared because time travel' is not even remotely a valid way to prove anything.

He does have a point though.
The writers already made Guinan not remember Picard (despite the fact that previoulsy, alternate futures individuals managed to appear in the prime timeline in the past and remain there regardless of the changes).
If that's the case, then its possible that some of the time travel episodes TOS made about the ENT visiting Earth in the past might result in a slightly altered development (simply by the sheer premise the Enterprise appeared in the past - even if they made sure no one discovered them). For example, the solar forcefield drones in the prime timeline might not exist, but in this one where the UFP doesn't exist, they do.

Or the solar forcefield drones may have existed at this point either way and just ended up not seen in use in UFP because poverty, disease and war were eradicated in the 50 years following First Contact and humanity also repaired the damage they did to the Earth, so they were never technically needed.

In this timeline, this doesn't happen, so Humanity never wisens up, and ends up developing solar shields for the entire Earth.
 
He does have a point though.
The writers already made Guinan not remember Picard (despite the fact that previoulsy, alternate futures individuals managed to appear in the prime timeline in the past and remain there regardless of the changes).
If that's the case, then its possible that some of the time travel episodes TOS made about the ENT visiting Earth in the past might result in a slightly altered development (simply by the sheer premise the Enterprise appeared in the past - even if they made sure no one discovered them). For example, the solar forcefield drones in the prime timeline might not exist, but in this one where the UFP doesn't exist, they do.

Or the solar forcefield drones may have existed at this point either way and just ended up not seen in use in UFP because poverty, disease and war were eradicated in the 50 years following First Contact and humanity also repaired the damage they did to the Earth, so they were never technically needed.

In this timeline, this doesn't happen, so Humanity never wisens up, and ends up developing solar shields for the entire Earth.

But again, in your scenario the technology doesn’t just disappear. It’s simply not used, or used in a different capacity. And if that was made clear in the show, that would be fine. Which was my original point. People are using ‘time travel’ (cue Dr. Evil making quote marks with his hands) as a convenient excuse to explain any differences away with a hand wave, when the reality is that it’s just a plot device to excuse bad writing and/or forgetfulness. Even Matalas was like, yeah, we don’t really understand it either. Which, again, is fine. But when people start accusing others of ‘not getting it’ when ‘it’ makes little sense anyway and seems to be a completely arbitrary set of ‘rules’ pulled out of someone’s ass, then it all just becomes silly.
 
Last edited:
But again, in your scenario the technology doesn’t just disappear. It’s simply not used, or used in a different capacity. And if that was made clear in the show, that would be fine. Which was my original point. People are using ‘time travel’ (cue Dr. Evil making quote marks with his hands) as a convenient excuse to explain any differences away with a hand wave, when the reality is that it’s just a plot device to excuse bad writing and/or forgetfulness. Even Matalas was like, yeah, we don’t really understand it either. Which, again, is fine. But when people start accusing others of ‘not getting it’ when ‘it’ makes little sense anyway and seems to be a completely arbitrary set of ‘rules’ pulled out of someone’s ass, then it all just becomes silly.

All I'm saying is that I can see the point @Vale mentioned (based of what happened with Guinan not recognizing Picard)... but I also agree that time travel isn't the only possible explanation behind the existence of force field drone technology (or not being seen or used in the UFP timeline).
 
All I'm saying is that I can see the point @Vale mentioned (based of what happened with Guinan not recognizing Picard)... but I also agree that time travel isn't the only possible explanation behind the existence of force field drone technology (or not being seen or used in the UFP timeline).

But Guinan not recognizing Picard because the last time he time traveled was now erased is quite different from using time travel as an excuse to show that things like technology simply get erased once the timeline is restored.
 
But Guinan not recognizing Picard because the last time he time traveled was now erased is quite different from using time travel as an excuse to show that things like technology simply get erased once the timeline is restored.

Its not that big of a stretch.
It has been mentioned before that changing historical events can happen by the mere presence of someone or something from the future (even if no one in the past was aware of them/it or retained the memory of those encounters in case they did).

If a similar mechanism occurred here, its possible that the mere presence of 1701 in Earth's past, or even Henry Starling creating Chronowerx may have influenced development of solar force-field drone technology in the UFP timeline.
Given how many temporal incursions to Earth's late 20th century we saw, its conceivable the mere presence of those time travelers in that time frame could have shifted a few things.

Also, different methods of time travel seem to have different effects in Trek.
The Q decided to travel to the 2024 Earth by his own means... whereas Picard and his crew used a more crude method of using the Star - so there are two different methods of time travel to the same time frame involved.

Plus as I mentioned, the technology could have easily existed in both timelines but just ended up not needed in the UFP timeline for reasons I already mentioned, and in the Confederacy timeline it was effectively developed further to create a planet encompassing shield because Humanity never wisened up or repaired the damage to the Earth.
 
I know a personal attack when I see one. I'm kindly telling you to knock it off so a mod doesn't have to get involved at all.

I imagine you've seen several.

Except none of that doublespeak actually proves anything. You don't know that Soong's drones will vanish in a puff of smoke once the timeline gets corrected any more than Soong himself will.

And maybe he will... so what? Or maybe the drones exist in the 2024 of the correct timeline too, like DY-100 ships, and viable cryonics, and orbital nuclear weapons platforms, and advanced genetic engineering that's been around for decades, and Chronowerx Industries being responsible for the entire computer industry, and interstellar probes, and umpteen other examples of things that are different from and rather more advanced than the technology of the real early 21st century.

The only thing we know for certain is that correcting the timeline will make the Confederacy cease to exist in the future and the Federation will exist instead.

And?

Again, complete supposition. Your emoticon can knock his head against the wall all it wants. It won't change the fact that saying 'things disappeared because time travel' is not even remotely a valid way to prove anything.

But... we've seen things... disappear... because TIME TRAVEL. So clearly it is a valid explanation in the context of time travel and Star Trek.
 
I think both of you need to knock it off. This is getting way too personal. :p

For my part, I can see elements of both viewpoints - I tend to assume this Guinan doesn't know Picard because we can infer their 1890s meeting didn't happen (but I also feel that should have been addressed in the episode, as some have said), but I also see the criticism that Soong's technology might seem too advanced for the era, and I don't see where it would be radically changed by the time travel. We've only seen it briefly at a point where whatever change triggers the Confederation future hasn't occurred yet. Just my two cents.

We've had similar problems with the Eugenics Wars being a huge event in the mid 90s, and yet also having VOY depict a 1996 that was pretty contemporary for story reasons. Sometimes the writing is simply inconsistent.
 
Last edited:
I think both of you need to knock it off. This is getting way too personal. :p

For my part, I can see elements of both viewpoints - I tend to assume this Guinan doesn't know Picard because we can infer their 1890s meeting didn't happen (but I also feel that should have been addressed in the episode, as some have said), but I also see the criticism that Soong's technology might seem too advanced for the era, and I don't see where it would be radically changed by the time travel. We've only seen it briefly at a point where whatever change triggers the Confederation future hasn't occurred yet. Just my two cents.

We've similar problems with the Eugenics Wars being a huge event in the mid 90s, and yet also having VOY depict a 1996 that was pretty contemporary for story reasons. Sometimes the writing is simply inconsistent.

Exactly. It’s inconsistent and poor writing being given a pass because ‘time travel.’ Sorry, not buying that excuse.
 
I'm always amused when I think of what happened with Marvel's Age of Apocalypse arc. It was originally written as a sort of YE-style time travel story where Legion went back in time to kill Magneto before he could become a major foe to the X-Men. But the past version of Xavier was accidentally killed instead, creating a much darker present day where Apocalypse's forces had destroyed half the world and Magneto's X-Men were fighting a losing battle. It's a pretty interesting arc overall.

Some years later, the contemporary Marvel writers wanted to tell new stories using the alternate AoA versions of characters, and they could only do that by ditching the time travel aspect and turning the AoA reality into one of the parallel Earths, even though that doesn't fit with the structure of the original story. The two arcs have elements that are arguably incompatible in ways, because the temporal stuff is key to the original story and its presence also makes reusing variant characters harder.
 
We've had similar problems with the Eugenics Wars being a huge event in the mid 90s, and yet also having VOY depict a 1996 that was pretty contemporary for story reasons. Sometimes the writing is simply inconsistent.

I remember reading that the Eugenics Wars were largely concentrated in North Africa, Southern Europe, Balkans area.

The US was largely unaffected by what was happening with the Eugenics War.

IRL, the world was a mess around the 1990's after the fall of the USSR (1988-1991):

During 1990-1991, the US/NATO was involved in the Gulf War when Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait along with the after math & peace keeping patrols after the fact when the US/NATO smashed Saddam Hussein's military.

Around that time, Bill Clinton had the US/NATO focused on the Yugoslav Wars & taking down Slobodan Milošević, starting around 1995 with Air Strikes. Before then, the world was sitting on the sidelines as the Yugoslav Wars was going on.

In between 1991 and 1995, the US failed to intervene in Rwanda to save lives:

During that time, Bill Clinton as PotUS failed to stop the genocide in Rwanda and nearly a million ethnic Tutsis were exterminated by Hutu Extremists
Clinton’s envoys in Rwanda were clear-eyed about the nature of what was unfolding in the hours and days following the April 6, 1994, shoot-down of a plane carrying Rwandan President Juvénal Habyarimana and his Burundian counterpart, according to the review’s transcript. That set the stage for the mass slaughter of nearly a million ethnic Tutsi Rwandans, and some moderate Hutus, by extremists among the country’s majority-Hutu population.


As the killing began, terrified Rwandans fled their homes for safety, to the grounds of U.S. Ambassador David Rawson’s residence. At one stage, a small child seeking protection in the ambassador’s backyard was shot and killed, Leader recalled.

Failure up the diplomatic chain prevented the US from reacting sooner.
On March 25, 1998, President Bill Clinton expressed regret for failing to halt genocide in Rwanda, saying that he didn’t “fully appreciate the depth and the speed with which [Rwandans] were being engulfed by this unimaginable terror.”

But U.S. officials in Rwanda had been warned more than a year before the 1994 slaughter began that Hutu extremists were contemplating the extermination of ethnic Tutsis, according to a review panel’s newly released transcript and declassified State Department documents obtained by Foreign Policy from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum.


An August 1992 diplomatic cable to Washington, written by Joyce Leader, the U.S. Embassy’s deputy chief of mission in Kigali, cited warnings that Hutu extremists with links to Rwanda’s ruling party were believed to be advocating the extermination of ethnic Tutsis. On the morning the killing began in April 1994, there was little doubt about what was happening in Rwanda.


“We had a very good sense of what was taking place,” Leader told an unprecedented 2014 gathering of former Rwandan officials and international policymakers who managed the response to the world’s worst mass murder since the Holocaust.

“It was clear that a systematic killing of Tutsi was taking place in neighborhoods.”
Senior ethnic Hutu officials who favored reconciling with Tutsi rebels refused to join forces with the extremists carrying out the genocide and were also hunted down and murdered, she said.

Leader’s cable was part of the discussion of a three-day review last year sponsored by the Holocaust Museum’s Center for the Prevention of Genocide and The Hague Institute for Global Justice. A transcript of the review’s findings — which runs more than 240 pages long, plus a 32-page executive summary — was provided to FP ahead of its public release at 11am on Monday, April 6, the 21st anniversary of the start of the Rwandan genocide

Given all the crazy stuff that was happening world wide in the 1990's, I wouldn't be surprised if the Eugenics Wars, which was supposedly mostly a secret war, out of mass media's eyes, was largely forgotten for quite a while or known to very few people.
 
It’s good that you mention that…the current conflict in Ukraine is something I thought would happen during the USSR’s collapse.

Now, India and Pakistan are facing off. I see Khan initially as a unifier….who went down Putin’s madness and had to escape. Now it’s Vladimir that might be looking to bug out on a DY-100. Oh wait—he gutted his space program.
 
It’s good that you mention that…the current conflict in Ukraine is something I thought would happen during the USSR’s collapse.

Now, India and Pakistan are facing off. I see Khan initially as a unifier….who went down Putin’s madness and had to escape. Now it’s Vladimir that might be looking to bug out on a DY-100. Oh wait—he gutted his space program.
Putin needs to be tried for crimes against humanity, just like Xi Jin-Ping.

But that's another topic for another thread.
 
How do you know that time travel is going to change when they were invented?

I mean, if we have them in two years I guess it didn't...

But the solar forcefield drones already existed before the point of divergence independent of Q's interference... meaning that Earth was originally already on this trajectory even in the prime timeline.

But people after the point of divergence have likely travelled back before the point of divergence.
 
If 2024 timeline is already different because "Time's Arrow" and a host of other trips into the past didn't happen then what is Team Picard fixing in 2024? They cannot be fixing anything that would lead to the future Picard knows since the 2024 timeline is already not the same as the original.

Since the Confederation appears to have not invented time travel, the past is the "virgin" history that played out the very first time. Once they get the Federation Timeline unfolding, the various time travel events will take place to modify the timeline to the one we know. This will happen instantaneously from the perspective of Picard and Co.


Now, how they get back to their proper place in History is yet to be revealed since Q's involvement made this situation unique.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top