Spoiler! DONT HATE ME! I liked FC

[Defcon]

Let me put it this way: What's the point in building the worlds most beautiful building and then blow it to pieces?

Isn't that exactly what people do when they build sand castles/sculptures at beaches? And I don't necessarily mean something build by a child, but rather sculptures worked on by artist. They know in advance their work won't survive long, but they do it anyway. And people do look at those works and admire the work those people have done despite knowing they will be gone soon.

 

[Lynx]

Let me put it this way: What's the point in building the worlds most beautiful building and then blow it to pieces?

Isn't that exactly what people do when they build sand castles/sculptures at beaches? And I don't necessarily mean something build by a child, but rather sculptures worked on by artist. They know in advance their work won't survive long, but they do it anyway. And people do look at those works and admire the work those people have done despite knowing they will be gone soon.

I think we discuss different things here.

Those who build those sand castles know that they won't last long but they don't destroy them deliberately in front of those who admire those sculptures.

As for TrekLit, it will last longer than sand castles which makes the destruction of one of its best characters even more unnecessary. Just think of all wasted potential, of all great episodes which could have been written about the character.

 

[Brit]

My only real point of disagreement is that somehow outsiders / Pocket Books thought it was okay to off Janeway because her fans weren't so active on boards. I doubt it would have really entered their thoughts, but I do have my business hat on when I say this. I think some of the writers in the TrekLit boards may have explained this point so I won't continue in case I recall incorrectly.

How could that not be a factor when Kirsten Beyer said to me in a PM that she had no idea that there were any organized Janeway fans and that she also thought that no one cared about Voyager. As for what the writers say, well these days writers have to be in the fore front promoting their books. That is true across the board through every genre. Trek writers are here to promote their books so of course they are going to have a particular slant to what they say.

Today word of mouth sells more books that anything else. Haven't you noticed that there are writers on both sides of this fence, they are here to sell books and if stirring a controversy will help that's just what will happen.

Again what I am saying is that if the decision to kill Janeway had not been made and if she had not died, Kirsten Beyer's book would probably have sold more widely and would have picked up new fans.

Look at it this way, today, eight years after the fact, fans are still pissed about Joe Carey's death in "Friendship One", how can anyone believe that Janeway fans would be any different?

Brit

 

[Lynx]

My only real point of disagreement is that somehow outsiders / Pocket Books thought it was okay to off Janeway because her fans weren't so active on boards. I doubt it would have really entered their thoughts, but I do have my business hat on when I say this. I think some of the writers in the TrekLit boards may have explained this point so I won't continue in case I recall incorrectly.

How could that not be a factor when Kirsten Beyer said to me in a PM that she had no idea that there were any organized Janeway fans and that she also thought that no one cared about Voyager. As for what the writers say, well these days writers have to be in the fore front promoting their books. That is true across the board through every genre. Trek writers are here to promote their books so of course they are going to have a particular slant to what they say.

Today word of mouth sells more books that anything else. Haven't you noticed that there are writers on both sides of this fence, they are here to sell books and if stirring a controversy will help that's just what will happen.

Again what I am saying is that if the decision to kill Janeway had not been made and if she had not died, Kirsten Beyer's book would probably have sold more widely and would have picked up new fans.

Look at it this way, today, eight years after the fact, fans are still pissed about Joe Carey's death in "Friendship One", how can anyone believe that Janeway fans would be any different?

Brit

I have to agree here.

I don't want to peck on Kirsten Beyer but she must have very little knowledge of the Voyager fanbase if she dismisses the amount of Janeway fans.

I mean, every forum I have posted on the recent years have had a fair share of devoted Janeway fans. Just remember the uproar over C/7, something which is still debated on many forums.

As I see it, Janeway is probably one of the most popular Star Trek characters, due to the amount of people who state that they like her and call themselves Janeway fans.

This morning I did write a post on a forum where there was a thread about "favorite Voyager character". Guess who more than half of the posters mentioned as their favorite?

And yes, you're right about Carey, some fans (including me) still disliked that he was killed off. Not to mention how Kes was ruined. We are a tight group of Kes fans who still haven't accepted the destruction of that character.

I'm sure that keeping Janeway alive and making an attempt to come up with good stories about her would have attracted many of the Janeway fans who haven't been that keen on buying the books. What I can see from the debates on different forums, the decision to kill off Janeway has alienated many fans who actually did like the books.

 

[Steve Roby]

Again what I am saying is that if the decision to kill Janeway had not been made and if she had not died, Kirsten Beyer's book would probably have sold more widely and would have picked up new fans.

I suspect I'm on your ignore list, but what the hell.

The book's only been out a few weeks. You don't know anything about how well it's selling, and how it's doing compared to Pocket's expectations.

 

[Frazzled]

Lynx and Brit, I agree completely with your last few posts. But I feel upset with the writers of the later series of Voyager possibly as much so as with the editors at Pocket books - I feel that they let Janeway down with their inconsistent characterisation as well as letting the fans down, and in doing so they paved the way for this whole nasty scenario.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx and Brit, I agree completely with your last few posts. But I feel upset with the writers of the later series of Voyager possibly as much so as with the editors at Pocket books - I feel that they let Janeway down with their inconsistent characterisation as well as letting the fans down, and in doing so they paved the way for this whole nasty scenario.

You do have a point here. Many of the things I dislike with the relaunch have their origins in the TV series.

But I've always believed that the authors who are writing the novels could find ways to solve many of those problems.

 

[JB2005]

I don't understand the position here, I've been trying but I can't.

If you're not going to read the books, then the authors aren't going to write in the way you want, because there's no guarentee you'd read them if they did.

I haven't read FC yet (living across the pond means I won't get my hands on it for a fortnight yet) so I'm reserving judgement, having said that I'm optomistic because the reviews I've read have been tres positive.

The people who post and say "I've not read the book of course, but I've heard..." You can't form an opinion on hearsay, read the book, don't read the book, whatever. If you think Janeway shouldn't have died and you haven't read the book, fine I can respect that. If you think Peter David didn't write it very well and you haven't read it, then I just can't see how you can form that opinion.

Again what I am saying is that if the decision to kill Janeway had not been made and if she had not died, Kirsten Beyer's book would probably have sold more widely and would have picked up new fans.

Possibly not, because it would have had an entirely different spin and story. I believe that if Queen Victoria had not died when she did there might have been no WWI, but there'll never be any proof...

Let me put it this way: What's the point in building the worlds most beautiful building and then blow it to pieces?

And the worst thing is that the person who have done that will not be remembered for building the worlds most beautiful building but for the destruction of it.

Still be remembered either way.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

My only real point of disagreement is that somehow outsiders / Pocket Books thought it was okay to off Janeway because her fans weren't so active on boards. I doubt it would have really entered their thoughts, but I do have my business hat on when I say this. I think some of the writers in the TrekLit boards may have explained this point so I won't continue in case I recall incorrectly.

How could that not be a factor when Kirsten Beyer said to me in a PM that she had no idea that there were any organized Janeway fans and that she also thought that no one cared about Voyager.

And just when I was about to clean out my TrekBBS mailbox...

Brit,

I am quoting below, typos and all, some of the exact words from my side of our PM exchange. Not all of them, because not all of them are applicable. I would cut and paste this from the actual messages if I knew how.

...Before I started writing Voyager I heard many dismissive comments about the show from places that would probably surprise you - though never from my editors at Pocket. In many ways it always seemed to be the least loved of the Trek series and that saddened me because it was my favorite, the one I knew inside and out, and the one I continued to see the most potential in.

This is the only text from our correspondence that I can find from which you might have extrapolated the words "..and that she also thought no one cared about Voyager."

What you have said and what I have said, however, are two very different things.

All you have to do is read any of dozens of threads on this board and other boards about Voyager to know that many fans were excited about the premise and consistently disappointed with the execution of the TV Series. But "least loved" is not the same as "no one cared." "Least loved" means...if you include all of the Star Trek stories...TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, New Frontier, etc...which one is generally liked the most? And which one is generally liked the least? This is not a poll and I dont' have anything to base this one other than an accumulation of reading fan comments over the years but I don't think it's a huge stretch to suggest that of the series, Voyager was among the "least loved" if not the "least loved" depending upon who you are talking to.

But I never said that "no one cared." Obviously people care. And it doesn't matter how large or small that number is.

So....for the record....I do not believe, nor have I ever believed, that "no one" cares about Voyager. I know I do. I know the people at Pocket do. I know many of my fellow writers do. And even if we don't count anyone else, that's enough to demonstrate the falsehood of your statement.

I don't believe Pocket isn't concerned...As far as the boards go, you should chalk that up to my personal ignorance rather than some sort of policy at Pocket. I didn't know what an internet bulletin board was a couple of years ago. I just learned a few months ago how to do the multi-quote thing. The only board I know of are the TrekBBS, Psiphi, Startrek.com and Simonsays.com. If there is another board you think I should read and might like to join, particularly if it is filled with fans of Voyager fiction, please let me know where they are and I will seek them out. I'm always interested in connecting with fans. My time is limited. But honestly, those I listed above wre the only ones I knew about.

How you get from that statement to "Kirsten Beyer said to me in a PM that she had no idea that there were any organized Janeway fans," eludes me. Not having any idea that there were other message boards where Trek literature was discussed is nowhere near not knowing there were organized Janeway fans around. I google. I see the lists of fan sites and fanfic sites. Kate Mulgrew has always had a following. Not long ago I read an interview in which she talked about a play she was doing at the time but how the majority of fans who ask afterwards for her autograph are still asking her to sign Janeway memorabilia.

Just because I didn't know that you and VAMB existed doesn't mean I didn't know organized Janeway fans existed.

The point here, however, is not to quibble about words. The point is that your incorrect interpretation of my words has led you to make statements which are more than factually incorrect. To suggest, as you have repeatedly here and elsewhere, that the reason Kathryn Janeway was killed is because no one at Pocket knew how big her fanbase was or even cared to find out before they made that choice, is ludicrous. To then twist my words to support your argument is unacceptable.

Hear this, please:

Janeway was not killed because her fans did not do a good enough job before this choice was made of advising Pocket Books that they existed. Nor was she killed because no one at Pocket thought she had any fans anymore. Her status with the fans was not a consideration.

All that was considered...beginning to end...ALL that was considered was how to create the best story that we could. You and many others are never going to agree that this was the best story to tell. You believe such things can be objectively quantified. I don't, but whatever. Point is, this was the most interesting and compelling direction that the writers and editors discovered as these stories were being developed. That alone-nothing else-is why it's the story that was told.

As for what the writers say, well these days writers have to be in the fore front promoting their books. That is true across the board through every genre. Trek writers are here to promote their books so of course they are going to have a particular slant to what they say.

I dare say that Trek writers, including myself, have a wide variety of reasons for frequenting message boards about their works, not the least of which, in my case, has become correcting multple repeated out and out lies that have been told since this conversation began. It's amazing how fast this stuff spreads. You have one post here asserting something I have just demonstrated is false and the very next post, Lynx has accepted your words as fact.

I know I can't correct all of this nonsense, nor do I have the time to try. Today, this thread was pointed out to me by a concerned individual and again, to him or her, I express my thanks.

Kirsten Beyer

 

[Steve Roby]

Somehow I didn't think Brit was presenting Kirsten's words honestly.

 

[kimc]

Somehow I didn't think Brit was presenting Kirsten's words honestly.

Let's keep it about the post and not the poster, shall we?

Brit and Kirsten Beyer, I can certainly appreciate how things can get misinterpreted. If in the future you can discuss with each other via pm and at least give the other poster a shot at posting something like "In further pms with X it seems I misunderstood a few things..."

If you feel after that the other poster is deliberately continuing to misrepresent you then that's another issue we'll have to deal with. Please feel free to pm me or my co-mod with any questions or concerns.

As you can see this stuff is being watched and there are those eager to join the fray. Thanks!

 

[Steve Roby]

Yeah, that's about what I expected.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Hear this, please:

Janeway was not killed because her fans did not do a good enough job before this choice was made of advising Pocket Books that they existed. Nor was she killed because no one at Pocket thought she had any fans anymore. Her status with the fans was not a consideration.

All that was considered...beginning to end...ALL that was considered was how to create the best story that we could. You and many others are never going to agree that this was the best story to tell. You believe such things can be objectively quantified. I don't, but whatever. Point is, this was the most interesting and compelling direction that the writers and editors discovered as these stories were being developed. That alone-nothing else-is why it's the story that was told.

Thank you! It's a shame some posters will just never "get" this.

And, if Janeway ever does return from her sojourn with the Q - if tht ends up being some future "most interesting and compelling direction" - some fans will be talking about how they forced Pocket to bring the character back from the dead.

 

[JB2005]

^ Yeah but if she doesn't ever come back, some fans will gloat about how they convinced pocket to keep her dead...

Best idea i've heard so far is repeatedly bringing her back and killing her off!

 

[Lynx]

A spontaneous thought when I read all this (and analyze my own feelings as well):

They should never have killed off Janeway!

Because it has only created controversy and anger.

Just look what we got here: Fans are arguing with each other. Fans of Janeway who normally would have bought the books will now avoid them. Fans are angry at the authors and editors. The authors and editors are p***ed off with fans who criticize their decision and those fans are p***ed off with the authors and editors who are commenting their anger.

Not a nice scene, to say the least.

The decision has created a rift between PocketBooks and many fans as well as among the fans themselves, something which might make many fans lose interest for Star Trek. The way Berman and his gang did rule the Star Trek empire in recent years did make Star Trek lose many loyal fans. There is a risk that the decrease in the number of fans will continue when decisions are made which only creates anger, distrust and despair.

 

[teya]

A spontaneous thought when I read all this (and analyze my own feelings as well):

They should never have killed off Janeway!

Because it has only created controversy and anger.

Just look what we got here: Fans are arguing with each other. Fans of Janeway who normally would have bought the books will now avoid them. Fans are angry at the authors and editors. The authors and editors are p***ed off with fans who criticize their decision and those fans are p***ed off with the authors and editors who are commenting their anger.

Not a nice scene, to say the least.

The decision has created a rift between PocketBooks and many fans as well as among the fans themselves, something which might make many fans lose interest for Star Trek. The way Berman and his gang did rule the Star Trek empire in recent years did make Star Trek lose many loyal fans. There is a risk that the decrease in the number of fans will continue when decisions are made which only creates anger, distrust and despair.

And for every one that thinks as you do, there is one who thinks differently.

So which group of fans should TPTB listen to?

Answer: Neither. They can't. Because if they did, that would just alienate others.

If you feel they should listen to one group of fans over another, then you are saying that that group is more important, more "real fans" than the other.

And that isn't true.

 

[Lynx]

I'm pretty sure that if they hadn't killed off Janeway, we wouldn't have had this situation.

We would have had a situation where most of us who now are involved in this debate had been rather happy with or at least content with the Voyager relaunch.

Some posters (like me) would have been critical to some aspects, like the split-up of the crew while others may have been happy with the direction. There would have been debates about this and that, as it always is when it comes to Star Trek.

But we wouldn't have had the rage, dissapointment and in-fighting that we do have today.

 

[JB2005]

A spontaneous thought when I read all this (and analyze my own feelings as well):

They should never have killed off Janeway!

Because it has only created controversy and anger.

Just look what we got here: Fans are arguing with each other. Fans of Janeway who normally would have bought the books will now avoid them. Fans are angry at the authors and editors. The authors and editors are p***ed off with fans who criticize their decision and those fans are p***ed off with the authors and editors who are commenting their anger.

Not a nice scene, to say the least.

The decision has created a rift between PocketBooks and many fans as well as among the fans themselves, something which might make many fans lose interest for Star Trek. The way Berman and his gang did rule the Star Trek empire in recent years did make Star Trek lose many loyal fans. There is a risk that the decrease in the number of fans will continue when decisions are made which only creates anger, distrust and despair.

I'm pretty sure that if they hadn't killed off Janeway, we wouldn't have had this situation.

We would have had a situation where most of us who now are involved in this debate had been rather happy with or at least content with the Voyager relaunch.

Some posters (like me) would have been critical to some aspects, like the split-up of the crew while others may have been happy with the direction. There would have been debates about this and that, as it always is when it comes to Star Trek.

But we wouldn't have had the rage, dissapointment and in-fighting that we do have today.

Nothing wrong with controversy and disagreement. To take an analogy the founding fathers should not have made the United States of America partisan because it has led to feuds between the Democrats and Republicans.

Disagreement is good, it allows us to consider each others point of view. For example I came to this board with very little opinion on the subject of Janeway's death. By joining in the debates I have been able to refine my own opinion and I hope I'm not alone.

So we'll never agree Lynx, you will continue to believe Janeway should be brought back/should never have died and I will continue to believe that her death was a good plot device and was appropriate. However I hope that you value the debates as much as I do. They allow me to define my own position and consider other points of view. It's democracy in action.

 

[teya]

I'm pretty sure that if they hadn't killed off Janeway, we wouldn't have had this situation.

We would have had a situation where most of us who now are involved in this debate had been rather happy with or at least content with the Voyager relaunch.

Some posters (like me) would have been critical to some aspects, like the split-up of the crew while others may have been happy with the direction. There would have been debates about this and that, as it always is when it comes to Star Trek.

But we wouldn't have had the rage, dissapointment and in-fighting that we do have today.

Lynx, we would *always* have "rage, disappointment & in-fighting." That's what Star Trek fans do.

We had rage, disappointment & in-fighting when Seven replaced Kes.

We had rage, disappointment & in-fighting when Jeri came on and some fans viewed her as a throwback to brainless bimbettes on Trek.

We had rage, disappointment & in-fighting when Endgame aired.

It's really nothing new.

 

[Lynx]

A spontaneous thought when I read all this (and analyze my own feelings as well):

They should never have killed off Janeway!

Because it has only created controversy and anger.

Just look what we got here: Fans are arguing with each other. Fans of Janeway who normally would have bought the books will now avoid them. Fans are angry at the authors and editors. The authors and editors are p***ed off with fans who criticize their decision and those fans are p***ed off with the authors and editors who are commenting their anger.

Not a nice scene, to say the least.

The decision has created a rift between PocketBooks and many fans as well as among the fans themselves, something which might make many fans lose interest for Star Trek. The way Berman and his gang did rule the Star Trek empire in recent years did make Star Trek lose many loyal fans. There is a risk that the decrease in the number of fans will continue when decisions are made which only creates anger, distrust and despair.

I'm pretty sure that if they hadn't killed off Janeway, we wouldn't have had this situation.

We would have had a situation where most of us who now are involved in this debate had been rather happy with or at least content with the Voyager relaunch.

Some posters (like me) would have been critical to some aspects, like the split-up of the crew while others may have been happy with the direction. There would have been debates about this and that, as it always is when it comes to Star Trek.

But we wouldn't have had the rage, dissapointment and in-fighting that we do have today.

Nothing wrong with controversy and disagreement. To take an analogy the founding fathers should not have made the United States of America partisan because it has led to feuds between the Democrats and Republicans.

Disagreement is good, it allows us to consider each others point of view. For example I came to this board with very little opinion on the subject of Janeway's death. By joining in the debates I have been able to refine my own opinion and I hope I'm not alone.

So we'll never agree Lynx, you will continue to believe Janeway should be brought back/should never have died and I will continue to believe that her death was a good plot device and was appropriate. However I hope that you value the debates as much as I do. They allow me to define my own position and consider other points of view. It's democracy in action.

I have to agree with you on some points. Sometimes controversy and debates can be a good thing. A society where everybody has the same opinion and no one questions anything will stagnate.

And yes, I do value the debates as such.

And despite the debates between Democrats and Republicans, I do think there is a common understanding between them after all.

But I must also point out that controversy can only be good it it leads to somthing positive in the long run and I'm not sure that this "Janeway case" will do that.